We are witness to a genocide.
Islamic State militants have executed at least 400 mostly women and children in Syria’s ancient city of Palmyra.
Eye-witnesses have reported the streets are strewn with bodies – the latest victims of the Islamic State’s unrelenting savagery – on the same day photographs of captured Syrian soldiers have emerged.
It follows the killing of nearly 300 pro-government troops two days after they captured the city, now symbolised by a black ISIS flag flying above an ancient citadel.
Islam in its full, true, practice as taught by its sacred texts.
Kevin,
The number of ISIS members is estimated at 50000. There are 1.57 billion Muslims in the world. Stereotyping a religion based on the actions of .00003% of that religion is foolish.
Please point out where ISIS is acting contrary to the instructions in the sacred Islamic texts.
Kevin,
Since your the one making the accusation why don’t you prove where in the Koran or sacred texts it says the things that would prove your theory about all Muslims. Back up your position with facts.
Answering-Islam.org
For starters. Islam’s goal is not salvation. It’s goal is to make everyone Muslim or eventually eliminate those that refuse under Sharia law.
Under Islam, which depends on the works of the Muslim believer for their god to bring them to heaven—those that conduct Jihad–get a bypass straight to glory.
So you can be the worst of Muslims and go to heaven, conversely, you can be the best behaved Muslim (by our standards), without Jihad, and still go to hell.
Muslims live without true hope.
If you want more in depth on this, read: “Dreams and Visions: How Jesus is appearing to the Muslim world.” The chapter on how Jesus converted a life long Muslim on journey to Mecca, and his journey to Mecca as a confessed Christian, where if he was caught, meant immediate execution for Christian infidel. Very gripping part if the book. The chronicle of the absolute hopelessness of those making the journey is stark. A place where non-Muslims are never allowed and has never been talked about outside the Islamic filter.
Now, you claimed opposite proof? Or will this be the point where you attack me on a personal level to avoid the point again (which is fine because that is when I always know I won the argument…”warming denier” is always my favorite…consider not using that one if you are going this route.)
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
This is better link to specific page of passages in sacred texts I was referring to in post above.
Kevin is right. There is an issue with Islam itself based on texts and interpretations of those texts at many points over the last 1400 years.
I’m not an Islamic scholar, but I’ve yet to see someone point out to me a “Ten Commandments” equivalent in there.
Until you have mainstream Islam publicly and forcefully disavow the violent/caliphate stuff, this is going to be a problem, as it has been since the time the book was written.
The problem is that too many in the Arab world buy into this stuff, even if they won’t publicly identify with it. Their silence and inaction is tacit approval of the jihad.
Kevin,
You haven’t shown me anything specific from the Koran. You have used other anti-Muslim rhetoric to support your position. With that said I will acknowledge there is violent passages within the Koran but nothing that is any more or less violent then passages contained within the bible. I previously quoted you comparable bible passages (different thread) now you should take the time to point out how “Islam in its full, true, practice as taught by its sacred texts” is teaching all Muslims to act as ISIS. That is your premise… Isn’t it?
Steve,
No, Kevin is not right.
Jade,
Did you read the Islamic passages?
There is nothing in bible even close! (Again, a Christian should know Old Testament ceremonial law is overridden by Christ’s New Testament covenants.)
You call yourself Christian but then equate your Christianity, to a false, hopeless, religion? A true Christian does not do that.
Read Galations 2:20 and you may want to reconsider your statement above. If Christ lives in you, it is impossible for you to equate your faith to empty, false , cold, hopeless, violent, Islam.
Jade–it isn’t that both books have their issues with violence. The point being that Christianity has been now interpreted for hundreds of years as a non-violent religion.The imagery of Jesus worldwide is never that of a battlefield warrior.
Different strains of Christianity still argue over certain interpretations, but much of it has been long-settled, with a strong nod to modernity. That hasn’t happened in the Islamic world, and by all indications the past 20-years, things are going backwards.
The most odd thing I find is how the left in the US are such strong defenders of freedom of religion for Muslims, yet at the same time, even as many of the more modern parts of the Muslim world still do not support equal rights for women or gays.
We’ll have a media/left wing driven scandal if a student shows up at public school wearing a shirt with a cross on it and the words “John 3:16” but gloss over the daily stories Owen posts on here about Muslims killing Christians, tossing gays off buildings and stoning bloggers. And some of that type of stuff is going on in places like Indonesia that are considered the more enlightened Muslim dominated areas versus the middle-east.
Why the Katie Courics of the US aren’t doing daily reports like this proves too much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmx-1CEVX0
Again, it really is up the rest of the Muslim world to stop this stuff. The problem is that they don’t appear willing and/or capable of doing it.
Kevin ,
Please point out exactly what in the Koran your referring to that makes all of Islam the same as ISIS. You seems unable to do this yet you continually slam all of Islam for the acts of the crazies (.00003%).
Steve,
From the Crusades to the Army of a God, Christians carry out violence in the name of Jesus. There are hundreds of other examples of Christian terrorism throughout the world. To be fair, I wouldn’t label all Christians terrorists because of the acts of a few. Muslims deserve the same fairness. There are also many Christians that are anti-gay and that hold women in a submissive or inferior role. Anti-gay bashing happens right here on our civilized country on a daily basis. Fairness, not stereotyping and prejudice should be used when measuring the whole of any religion. You and Kevin have both failed to be fair. You both have judged 1.57 billion people based on the actions of the few.
Jade—We’ve all heard about the Crusades–FROM 1,000 years ago. Interestingly enough, the US fought Japan and Germany in brutal, brutal wars just 70-years ago, but we aren’t seeing the US left out condemning the brutality of the Japanese and German people today for the violence only two generations removed in those countries. Only such disdain is reserved for Christianity.
Where today are Christians in the world beating down others? Slaughtering others? Setting off car bombs? Stoning non-believers in the public square for crimes of adultery, homosexuality and exercise of free speech? And doing it while quoting Bible verses?
All that really exists is a bunch of left-leaning folks in America who are frankly afraid of Christianity for a variety of their own reasons, and for some reason they consider that to be the biggest threat the nation faces.
Steve,
I didn’t know the level at which or the frequency of the brutality was in question. You tried to establish that Christianity is a non-violent religion and I proved violence exists and is carried out by nut jobs in all religions. People like to justify the violence contained in one sacred text yet condemn the violence in another. Your attempt to characterize me as a supporter of terror because I’m unwilling to label all Muslims as violent terrorists is ridiculous but a common tactic among anti- Muslim shit slingers. There are 842 violent or cruel passages in the bible as compared to 333 in the Koran (Quran). These passages are used by extremists on both sides to justify their cause, indoctrinate and recruit support. Those weak enough to buy into the BS end up chopping off heads or killing abortion doctors. It’s not the religion that’s flawed (unless of course you don’t believe in the freedom of religion) it’s the nut jobs interpretation of the passages and the way they use them. .00003% of Muslims (in this case ISIS) are responsible for carry out atrocities and as you so eloquently pointed out we don’t hold all Germans or Japanese responsible for the acts (most soldiers were forced to fight or brainwashed into believing a false cause) of their leaders we shouldn’t hold all Muslims responsible for the acts of the few.
Steve,
It’s curious how you condemn Muslims for the “issue with Islam itself based on text and interpretations of those texts at many points over the past 1400 years” yet condone And dismiss Christianity’s violent role over the past “1000 years”. Double standard to say the least.
Jade,
Romans 13:8 “Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.”
If Christians fail in this duty, like calling to hurt, kill, or torture others, I certainly would call that Christian out.
There is no Islam equivalent toward those who are not Muslim. Its a call for violence against those that fail to convert, not love. Muslims embrace killing, torturing, and hurting others by their silent acceptence of all the violence, especially against women, under Sharia Law.
In Christianity: Love through the grace of Christ fullfills the law.
In Islam: Jihad, by killing the infidel, fullfills the law.
Anxious for you to prove me wrong on this simple point.
Christianity has completely different directives from Jesus, compared to the directives from Allah.
You still didn’t answer my question: How can Christ be in your heart if you equate your Christianity with the false, violent, religion of Islam which has completely different moral directives in treatment of others?
Its still good to pray for the conversion of the Muslim to Jesus and hope they find the truth of Jesus. However, it is a mistake to soft pedal, or mislead, that Islam does not teach violence and does not encourage all Muslims to Jihad. Those that don’t embrace Jihad are MINO’s (Muslim in name only, thay call themselves Muslim, but don’t really understand what it means.)
Jade,
You still have not pointed to where ISIS in its actions, are acting CONTRARY to the instructions in the Islamic sacred texts.
If ISIS claimed to be Christian, I can point to countless areas in the bible where they would be acting contrary to Christianity.
Kevin,
These are your opinions but you haven’t yet been able to give any actual quotes from the Koran to back up your opinions. I can wait, in the mean time you can ramble on about how I’m a liberal, non Christian, supporter of terrorism but you have no evidence of that either. You would be a terrible prosecutor. As I’ve said all religions have factions of extremists but that doesn’t make them all bad. Holding 1.57 billion people responsible for the acts of .00003% of religion is foolish. You can justify it any way you want but in the end it’s just engrained prejudice. Romans 13:8 was not preceded with “only Christians”.
If you bothered to look, there was 160+ passages fitting the bill at this link:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
I can’t help it if you refuse to read the obvious.
It would be great if everyone practiced Romans 13:8. However Christian should strive, by faith, to live up to that standard. For the unbeliever, its just a nice platitude.
I’ve pointed out where ISIS is acting according to the sacred texts and teachings of Islam.
Where are your verses to the contrary?
Kevin,
It would be nice if Christians such as you applied Romans 13:8 as intended not as falsely interpreted to fit your needs. Manipulating the scripture to suit your needs is a sin. It’s the same thing terrorist Muslims do with the Koran. I have looked at your link and as I pointed out there are 842 similar versus in the bible compared to 333 in the Koran. Why aren’t you critical of the violent and cruel passages in the bible? Why aren’t you infuriated by Christian violence? Why do you slam all Muslims for the acts of the few? So am I to believe that Jesus taught hate and would apply Romans 13:8 only to Christians. Doesn’t sound like he Jesus I know.
Steve,
After giving it a some thought I realized that if it’s examples (not 1000 year old) of Christian violence you are looking for look no further… How about slavery and the “Indian Wars”. Christianity was continuously used as the crutch holding up the justification behind the mistreatment and killing of slaves and Native Americans. Millions were killed.
Guys,
You are arguing about which side has a better , more civilized form of belief in magic
Kev tells us to ignore the bad parts of the OT and Stve thinks the Left is afraid of Christianity
I’m of the near left and the only thing I’m afraid of is people who hear God and know what he or she thinks.
There is no purer or best form of magic .
And when you tell yourself your group has all the answers and is the only people with a real sense of the Higher Power , you are a fanatic .
All that’s left to argue is who the better behaved fanatic is .
The discussion is very simple. One religion has accepted modernity to a significant extent (Christianity). One religion has not (Islam) and now even has significant components retreating from modernity (See link above to the Aceh province in “enlightened” Indonesia with 4.7 million people in that province heading back to full Sharia law).
Yet interestingly enough, the American left believes the one that has not accepted modernity is the religion worthy of greater protections and respect both in the United States and worldwide.
Mark,
I never said ignore the “bad parts” of OT. I said those parts are overridden by NT covenants.
Unlike Islam, Christianity has no marching orders to hurt, kill, or steal from others. The Christian marching order is the golden rule, which you have acknowledged you like.
Islam has no golden rule, it’s rule is exact opposite. So there is no equating the 2 religions.
However, I do find it fascinating the American left finds it fashionable to defend the religion founded by a thieving child molester, but will treat Jesus and Christianity with more disdain in society.
Jade,
If “Christians” in the past openly failed the Golden Rule in action…were they Christian?
The answer is: without a repentant heart and wanting to amend their sinful actions/life: no. (Amend meaning they stop committing that sin openly.)
This is interesting, you want to judge so called Christians of the past to discredit your own faith, but if I praise someone for openly thanking a cop for defending us from criminal evil, you practically stroke out over my (or Owen) daring to make a simple judgement praising the good, today.
It’s clear you like judging others, as long as they are dead and there us no chance anyone, anywhere will be offended. Hitler sometimes claimed to be Christian, but his actions show he was not, and barring some deathbed repentance we are unaware about, he is burning in hell.
So this gets back to our past point. If someone says they are Christian but never remains in the word by reading their bible, going to church, and being active in the means if grace, openly defends evil, hurts or steals from others, and openly sins, and is unrepentant when approached about correcting that sin….. Are they “Christian”? None of that is a sign the Holy Spirit dwells within their heart. So the answer is: no
Read 1&2 Corinthians for a brush up on what Christian faith looks like in action.
Under Islam, muslims deny the Holy Spirit which allows Christians to carry out God’s will. All that is left for the Muslim is hopelessness.
We are to take pity on those left hopeless, but we should not diminish the evil their hopeless religion demands to carry out.
That is the difference…the question is, as a Christian why do you not know this basic truth?
You offend the truth of Jesus when you say Islam and Christianity are the same. Since you are willing to offend the dead, is Jesus dead to you?
I’m asking because if Jesus is alive to you, you would never equate his truth on the same level as Islam.
Kevin,
Whenever you are proven wrong you hold your bible up so you can hide behind it. There are 842 violent or cruel passages in the bible and 333 in the Koran. You don’t condemn those Christians who misinterpret scripture to met their needs. Why? Does Romans 13:8 only apply to Christians? The difference between you and me is I’m humble in my religion and your all knowing in yours. You try to walk beside God and I try to follow. I agree with Mark when he says “when you tell yourself your group has all the answers and is the only people with a real sense of the Higher Power, you are a fanatic.” You can continue to use your bible to hold people down and I will continue to use my bible to lift people up. I BELIEVE that’s the way Jesus would have wanted it. I will continue to wave my flag high and wide and you can continue to hide behind yours. You can also continue to be wrong you pretty good at it.
Steve,
I thought all Americans believed in the freedom of religion. We as Americans should be willing to defend the rights of the majority without trampling the rights of the minority. Muslims have the same rights to practice their religion free from suppression. Labeling all Muslims as terrorists or violent is a form of suppression. I’m not willing to throw out The Constitution because some idiots believe all Muslims are violent terrorists. This is exactly the type of fear used by irresponsible Christians when suppressing interracial marriage, women’s rights, civil rights etc. It’s time to put on your big boy pants and realize the indoctrinating BS continually shoved down your pie hole isn’t always true. You don’t have to give up your conservative membership to think rationally.
Jade Said,
“Whenever you are proven wrong you hold your bible up so you can hide behind it.” THAT IS BECAUSE THE BIBLE IS A BOOK FULL OF ANSWERS, IF YOU ACTUALLY READ IT.
“There are 842 violent or cruel passages in the bible and 333 in the Koran.” I’VE ALREADY TOLD YOU, A TRUE CHRISTIAN UNDERSTANDS THE NEW TESTAMENT COVENANT AND THAT OLD TESTAMENT CEREMEONIAL LAW IS OVERRIDDEN. JUST BECAUSE THE PASSAGES ARE THERE, THERE IS NO “MARCHING ORDERS”, UNLIKE ISLAM, TO CARRY THEM OUT FOR THE CHRISTIAN. SINCE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS, I SUGGEST BIBLE STUDY, WHICH YOU HAVE REFUSED PAST INVITATIONS. STAYING IN THE WILLFUL DARK ON THIS POINT DOES NOT MAKE YOU ANYWHERE CLOSER TO BEING CORRECT.
“You don’t condemn those Christians who misinterpret scripture to met their needs. Why?” WHO? AND WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO? MATTHEW 18 REQUIRES ONE TO TALK TO THE CHRISTIAN FIRST, THEN BRING WITNESSE IF THEY STILL CLING TO FALSE DOCTRINE, THEN RELAY IT TO CHURCH AND IF THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THE CHURCH, THEN EXPEL THEM FROM THE COMMUNITY OF BELIEVERS IN HOPE THEY REPENT.
“Does Romans 13:8 only apply to Christians?” IF NON-CHRISTIANS READ IT AND PRACTICE IT, GREAT. NOT TO MANY NON-CHRISTIANS TAKE TIME TO READ THE BIBLE.
“The difference between you and me is I’m humble in my religion and your all knowing in yours.” DON’T CONFUSE “HUMBLE”, WITH “DOCTRINAL ERROR”, OR STANDING AGAINST WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.
” You try to walk beside God and I try to follow. I agree with Mark when he says “when you tell yourself your group has all the answers and is the only people with a real sense of the Higher Power, you are a fanatic.” THE CHURCH I ATTEND ACCEPTS THE BIBLE AS INERRANT, DIVINELY INSPIRED. IF YOU DON’T ACCEPT THE BIBLE AN INERRANT, AND YOU PICK AND CHOOSE, THE BIBLICAL TRUTHS ALL FALL APART. SO YOU FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF A MAN WHO HAS OPENLY REJECTED JESUS VS. JESUS? BEING A CHRISTIAN IS YOUR FAITH ON DISPLAY. MARK IS A SELF PROFESSED RETIRED CHRISTIAN, HE IS NOT NECCESARILY THE PROPER SPIRITUAL ADVICE TO FOLLOW, IF YOU CLAIM TO BE A CHRISTIAN. IF YOU CLAIMED TO BE A NON-CHRISTIAN, THEN SURE, MARK’ POINTING TO SOME OF THE BEATITUDES AS A WAY TO LIVE IS A GOOD THING. (MARK DOES NOT LIKE THE BEATITUDE ABOUT RIGHTEOUSNESS.) WHEN MARK, PICKS AND CHOOSES BIBLICAL TRUTHS TO KEEP AND TOSS, HE DOES CHOOSE SOME GOOD THINGS TO KEEP, BUT HE ALSO TOSSES A LOT OF GOOD THINGS.
“You can continue to use your bible to hold people down and I will continue to use my bible to lift people up.” FAIRLY ENTERTAINING STATEMENT SINCE YOU JUST SAID THE BIBLE CALLS FOR VIOLENCE AGAINST YOUR FELLOW MAN AND IS MORE VIOLENT THAN SACRED TEXTS OF ISLAM. DON’T YOU THINK THAT PUTS YOUR FELLOW CHRISTIANS DOWN? DON’T YOU CONSIDER THAT AN OPEN ATTACK ON YOUR FAITH, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT? HOW DOES SAYING THE BIBLE IS MORE VIOLENT THAN THE VILE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM “LIFT PEOPLE UP”? I’D BE FASCINATED TO KNOW.
WHEN YOU ACCUSE A FELLOW CHRISTIAN OF “HIDING BEHIND THEIR BIBLE”, IT SHOWS YOU DETEST WHAT THE BIBLICAL TRUTH IS ON THE MATTER.
SO IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, AS I ASKED BEFORE, IS JESUS DEAD TO YOU? THAT IS THE ONLY WAY YOUR STATEMENTS WOULD MAKE ANY POSSIBLE SENSE. IF JESUS WAS ALIVE IN YOUR HEART, YOU WOULD NOT MAKE THOSE STATEMENTS.
Jade,
No one says all Muslims are violent terrorists. Many Muslims are Muslims in name only. However, Muslims living their faith to true fruition and instruction means Jihad and Sharia Law suppressing all freedom of speech and non-muslims. Any Muslim that speaks against Jihad and Sharia Law is an infidel.
The teachings of the religion are a threat. Not the Muslims who don’t take any of the teachings seriously. However, its difficult to determne who is not a threat because so few Muslims are willing to speak out against the violence of their religious teachings…that is the problem.
The more we soft pedal, and lie, that Islam is a “religion of peace” the less likely the Muslim in name only will speak out. Why speak out agaisnt peace? We need them to speak out against evil! This is why the American Left is making this a dangerous world, its taking Hitler-like evil and reselling it as peace, making the situation much, much worse.
Kevin,
The bible is a book of answers only when kept in context. The way you use it to justify pollution, prejudice and political positions is not Christian and isn’t the purpose of the bible. Maybe you should actually read it. If Christians are capable of distinguishing between the 842 violent or cruel passages why aren’t responsible Muslims capable of doing the same with the 333 passages in the Koran? Vast numbers of Muslims publicly reject Sharia law and calls for jihad. If staying in “the willful dark” keeps me from thinking like you then turn off all the lights.
The question about Romans 13:8 is do YOU only apply it to Christians or do you love all people as It was meant.
I don’t follow Marks spiritual advice I merely agreed with his analogy of religious fanatics.
I didn’t say the bible calls for violence against my fellow man I merely gave a numerical comparison of violent or cruel statements contained in both.
This whole CAPITALIZED rant is perfect proof of how you hide behind your bible. Instead of addressing the issue at hand you’ve once again turned this into a pissing contest about who’s the better Christian. You have yet to prove how the brutal acts of ISIS are “Islam in its true, full, practice as taught by its sacred texts”. Your theory is based on fear, prejudice and religious domination. It’s attitudes and opinions like yours prompted by Muslim extremists that will lead us into the next holy war. But I suppose when heaven is the better place why not get us all killed. Don’t forget to drink your “kool aid”.
Jade,
I only cap’d to distinguish between your comment and my response.
When did I use the bible to justify pollution, and prejudice?
The point you miss is: the so called violent passages in OT are historical record and not a call to action for Christian to be overtly violent. The NT covenant overrides any misperception that the bible calls any Chistian to be violent, but, instead, act out of grace and love. This is your “willful” in the dark problem. Jesus grace and love now covers those so called violent passages.
Christianity’s goal is to save souls through Christ.
There is no corresponding instruction in sacred Islamic texts . Violence is called for and active in Islam.
Islam’s goal is covert more Muslims, by force, if needed. They have no sure hope of salvation. So duty to conversion does not have to follow any code except found in the violent Islsmic texts. Koran is clear. If they do not convert. Kill them.
I’ve been asking you for those passages in the Koran like the grace and love NT covenant, since you claim they exist. If they do exist, they don’t work very well in practice. The moderate Muslims constantly fails to call out their violent believers.
So when you compare Christ’s divine instruction book to the vileness of Islam, is Jesus dead to you? The Holy Spirit dwelling within does not put something so vile on same level with Jesus.
On Romans 13:8:
Love means being sincere and delighting in the truth (I’d quote direct passage, but direct passages have offended you in past.)
If someone’s path is a path of rejecting Jesus, to eternal consequences, do you correct them? Or allow them continue on the destructive path by using the typical liberal mankind logic, “it’s OK, I’m good person.”
Is your love eternal, with genuine concern for one’s soul?
By comparing Muslims and Christian texts on same level, you are saying, it’s just dandy to be Muslim even though their soul is in peril …is that love?
So are we talking Romans 13:8 in the eternal love sense, biblical sense, or love in the man made sense that does not care about one’s eternal destination?
If we can get clear on that we can discuss your question intelligently.
Kevin,
This is ridiculous. You still have not proven how the brutal acts of ISIS are “Islam in its true, full, practice as taught by its sacred texts”. You have offered a lot of your jaded personal opinions but nothing of a concrete factual nature. You have turned this into a biblical pissing contest and have wandered way off point. You have also completely twisted Romans 13:8 to suit your needs in this argument once again proving you are willing to distort the bible and the teachings of Jesus to win a debate. Not Christian at all. Our Constitution demands the freedom of all religion. To deny Muslims of their right to worship equally is prejudice. To claim their religion does not deserve the same liberties as Christianity is to denounce our Constitution. I really can’t wait to see how you handle it when the two issues we’ve been debating collide. The Muslims you reject and the vouchers you will soon hand out to support a local mosque or when public school days are interrupted multiple times a day for Muslim worship. Understanding your enemy is the key to defeating them. Your limited knowledge of Muslims and how the majority of them interpret the Koran is detrimental to finding a path to peace. If your solution is to try and convert 1.57 billion Muslims to Christianity as a path to peace and I would say a holy war is inevitable. Continually bad mouthing their religion and saying they all condone violence is counterproductive. This anti Muslim theme is the newest fashionable hate and fear tactic used to separate people from their votes. Sorry to say but my vote will cost more then this ignorant rhetoric.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
How I explained Romans 13:8 is incorrect?
Explain it to me then.
I tried to be indirect, and simple, on explaining the biblical passage where love must be sincere and delight in the truth. Love must include concern for others eternal destination for their soul, not just by the issues here on this earth. I see I managed to offend you again by taking a simplier approach.
As a Christian, can I ask, why are you constantly offended by what is in the Bible?
Kevin,
It takes much more than your jaded manipulations of the bible or the truth to offend me but I do note and won’t forget your efforts. I did review the “answering-Islam” website you’ve referred me to but it doesn’t answer the question. I could show you the 842 similar quotes that some Christians use to justify extreme stances but that also wouldn’t answer any questions. It really is frustrating dealing with someone who relies on diversion tactics to skirt issues. Questioning my spirituality, my politics and my intelligence hasn’t helped you so far in any of our debates so I ask myself why do you keep resorting to this method/tactic… I have concluded you are incapable of pondering the notion of being wrong and you will resort to any and all distractions to avoid the possibility. Your avoidance of the original question is an admission of your position being wrong. Sugar coat it, dress it up, call it honey but it’s just more BS.
So you really do not want to talk about Romans 13:8 now?
I explained the biblical meaning. Re-read my post, that is jaded? ( to say that love must be sincere, delight in the truth, and be concerned for one’s eternal soul?)
I just asked what your version of Romans 13:8 meant. How can I admit being wrong on my Romans 13:8 comment when you do not even state your position?
I agree with Rand Pauls position on ISIS expressed on Morning Joe today. However, as I said before we need to destroy ISIS.
So we still do not want to discuss my “manipulation” of Romans13:8, or what Christians would call the “truth”?
Rand had a couple good ideas, but it is not enough against an enemy who’s master goal is to make you Muslim or kill you. Rand is not quite as bad as the appeaser we have in White House today. Obama took the Iraq war from a win to a loss in 2 years. We have left all the Christians, Muslim women, and non-Muslims in that region to suffer.
Kevin,
ISIS may want to make me a Muslim or dead but they would have to get around the U.S. Military and that’s not going to happen. I don’t live in fear of these punks. I actually think holding back and letting Iraq and other middle eastern country’s fight the fight was a good idea in the beginning. Apparently the coalition was incompetent. At some point other country’s have to be willing to protect themselves. Lots of lives were lost and that is a huge regret. Why a coalition of 50 plus countries can’t kick the shit out of these chumps is a mystery. The problem now is they are embedded. To root them out of every hole will cost a lot of American lives. I’m not sure the nation is ready for that. Ready or not here we come. Give it a week or two and Big O will have to make a move. I’m not much for rehashing the past and placing blame. It doesn’t matter to me how or why we got here only that we are here. Blame Bush or Obama there’s enough blame to go around. From a historical perspective and to assure it doesn’t happen again we should discuss it but as far as destroying ISIS it doesn’t matter.
YOU have discussed Romans 13:8 enough. Nothing I can say will convince you otherwise and that’s okay. You are entitled to your interpretation and you can apply your interpretation any way you see fit. As far as Christian truth, this is also an area in which we differ. Christian truth and the “truth” are two different things. I know you will disagree but telling the truth about an issue or truthfully seeing past the rhetoric to make an unbiased opinion is absolutely necessary when making non church related decisions. This is were I differ from the Christian Right. Not all people in this country are Christians and our government was set up to recognize this and to provide the same rights and protections to all citizens. That doesn’t lessen my commitment to God only enables me to consider the rights of others without injecting my beliefs into their governmental issues. There are many conservatives that recognize the separation of church and state as a good thing. I know this is a controversial subject for a lot of conservatives but as I mentioned I don’t really want other religions to insist on equal rights if religion was allowed in schools. This theory can also, as I mentioned, be applied to school vouchers. Once it an across the board policy (in ten years) every Muslim will crawl out of the wood work and want a voucher so they can send their kid to a “mosque school”. Don’t want my take dollars going to support that and I don’t want my children interrupted four times a school day to break for Muslim prayer. We have to be careful what we ask for. Sometimes ideas are short sighted and haven’t been thought through. Once religion is introduced into schools or vouchers are fully implemented it won’t just be Muslims that want their equal rights. Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Sikhs, Shintos, Baha’is, Druids, atheists, etc.etc. etc. on and on and on will all want equal rights on my dime and that just not going to happen.
You didn’t offer any other interpetation of Romans 13:8, that is the funny part. (but somehow, the eloquent interpretation offered just has to be wrong…) You differ from “Christian right”? So you, in essence, throw out most of the bible? I can now see why biblical passages and biblical truth offends you.
The problem with ISIS is: we let this evil flourish by premmature withdrawal from Iraq. These ISIS deaths are also on our hands just as much as liberal UK Prime Minister Chamberlain has NAZI appeaser deaths on his hands. Obama cannot even bring himself to call evil, evil, which shows we have a Chmaberlain-like crisis of morality in the White House.
ISIS is recruiting in America, France, Germany, UK. In France, we had an obvious attack in Charlie Hebdo situation. In America, ISIS claimed responsibility for attack at Mohammed comedy event. We are already at war, only Obama will not acknowledge it.
However, we can turn blind eye to evil, and call it something else and allow more innocent people to die.
“Christian love” is not the term I’d use for that position.
Kevin,
I concluded based on the interpretation you gave of Romans 13:8 and how it seemed to exclude some from the entitlement of love offered to all in that passage that we are on different paths to the same destination. And that’s okay. I differ from the Christian Right on the issues of religion in schools, school vouchers and the unending ability to separate mans laws from biblical laws. Some people don’t follow biblical law and therefore must be governed by man made laws. Hence, the U.S. Constitution and every law enacted thereafter. This doesn’t mean I’m not a conservative. This doesn’t mean I throw out the bible it means in my personal life I live the way I’m spiritually entitled but respect the rights afforded to nonChristian. I understand that this isn’t what you do and again that’s okay. It’s not for me or you to judge. Ultimately, God not me or you will decide our destiny.
We HAVE been at war with terrorist. Give Obama some credit for taking out thousands including Osama. You are obviously grasping at straws. The American people voted Obama into office on the promise of withdrawal from Iraq and Obama actually kept us there longer. Nobody… Nobody wants to go back into that awful place, especially me. We should have never been there in the first place, but once there we should have kept a massive presence (military base) in Iraq and we should be kicking the shit out of ISIS as I type. However, that’s not reality. Plenty of blame to go around. I don’t want to bury any more of my people to protect a country and a region that will never heal. I will say again, Rand Paul made some good points and the clearest view yet of the real situation. I understand the fighting evil perspective you are implying as Christian love but as a nation we can’t run blindly into war to save people that have been fighting each other for centuries. No war is the same, If we would have run blindly in WW2 we would have lost.
Romans 13:8 you said my interpretation excluded those on a different path to same destination. This is yet another area where you ignore the Bible (when you ignore some it all falls apart.)
Jesus is the truth and the life. No one has salvation without him. John 14:6.
Those that preach another gospel, other than Christ crucified, let them be cursed. Galatians 1:8-9. Also 2 Corinthians 11, the entire chapter.
So if you embrace any other gospel than Christ crucified for your sins you destroy the truth and deceive others. All other religions, other than Evangelical Christianity, teach some form of earned good works or that being a good person can earn salvation. Those are false religions that lead people to eternal destruction. If you can earn salvation on your own, you don’t need Jesus, thereby reject him and the truth.
If everyone is on different path to same destination, Hitler, Stalin, and Chairman Mao, the worst liberal evil in history gets the same destination, heaven?
The founder of Islam, a thief and child molester, is in heaven for leading millions through the ages to reject Jesus?
No eternal punishment for unrepentant evil at all?
If so, why be good if we all go to heaven, no matter what?
It drives me crazy when teenagers in my employ suffer from typical public school religion, ” I’m going to heaven because, I’m a good person.” Meanwhile they lead a self centered life full of all kinds of bad choices, especially morally. Some accept the evangelical message, some don’t.
If you don’t see those with the ” I earn my way to heaven without Jesus” attitude as a rescue mission, it’s time to strengthen your faith with some solid bible study.
So love in your interpretation is to let others think it’s ok to reject the truth, to their eternal peril? I’ll always try to correct when I come across this worldly attitude, because I want my love to be sincere and delight in the truth.
I know,
I know,
I offended you on multiple levels. I’m sincerely concerned about your embrace of false worldly viewpoints which reject Jesus.
Kevin,
I haven’t subscribed to any of the high school kid ideology or any other for that matter. Are we back to you twisting my words? I said we share different opinions about the meaning of Romans 13:8 but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong or you’re wrong. Our destination is the same as Christians. Catholics are Christians and interpret many passages in the bible differently. They are still on the path trying to reach a common destination. Even though you are trying really hard I’m still not offended. I have the ability to love even those that don’t share my beliefs. It’s not for me to say if their destination is heaven. Oh,by the way, be careful how you force religion onto your employees, especially minors, it’s against the law.
If you love those that don’t share your beliefs (assuming you believe the truth of Christ crucified and risen for our justification), you will want to tell the other person they are on a path that risks eternal consequences.
This means you have to distinguish between good, and bad, and judge actions. You have made many references that it’s even wrong to distinguish good and evil, especially if it offends those defending evil.
A Christian acting immoral needs just as much sincere love as a Muslim following the false religion. What we should not do is soft pedal, or give impression what they are doing is just dandy.
That is what you imply by defending violent Islamic texts, or that following Islam, even in a pretend, non-jihad, sense is the right thing to do.
Worse, you equate the truth of your Christianity with a religion that embraces a dark and hopeless existence without Jesus. If you show your Christianity is as hopeless as Islam, does that bring them to Jesus?
As a redeemed follower of Jesus,be excited about it, show it’s the truth and the light! Don’t equate your faith with the dark and evil in this world. Show the hopeless you have hope. Equating the bible with Islam says you have no hope as a Christian.
That is my challenge with your statements.
Are you alive in Christ, or do you have a faith that feels as hopeless as a Muslim?
That really is the question that really is dancing around all this discussion.
I hope it’s clear where I stand.
Kevin,
You are a practicing member of a WELS, which is, I guess, good for you. But WELS is a minority when it comes to the rest of the people in the world that don’t subscribe to the same teachings you do.
You are free to embrace the teachings of your religion as you wish, but please allow others the same freedom and stop your insane preaching. Let others have their beliefs. They are as right as you are.
Kevin,
You are the one continually equating my beliefs to other religions. These assumptions about what I believe are ridiculous. I have never claimed any of this shit you are putting on me. You are still clearly upset by the fact that I pointed out what a hypocrite you are. You can continue to slam me for things I never said but that’s makes you look even more intolerant then you already are. You have a laundry list of BS you assume about me. I challenge you to prove any of it. I’m starting to tire of this unsubstantiated crap. You have managed to lump together two separate issues. My position on ISIS is different from my position on other Muslims. Your prejudice whether based on religion or not is unjustified. It’s funny how you don’t mention the Prophet Muhammad as a polygamist anymore. Nor do you ever mention Jesus is considered a Prophet. I have never said its wrong to distinguish between good and evil. Prove it. I have never implied what they are doing is just dandy. Prove it. I have never defended violent Islamic text. Prove it. I have never equated my Christianity with the dark and evil in this world. Prove it. I have never equated the bible to Islam. Prove it. See, you can’t prove it because it’s just more rhetoric and propaganda to push your agenda. You were wrong before and you continue to be wrong. These attempts show a real disconnection from society and a fanatical representation of Christianity. I’m trying to be polite but I will only take so much.
Pat said,
“You are free to embrace the teachings of your religion as you wish, but please allow others the same freedom and stop your insane preaching. Let others have their beliefs. They are as right as you are.”
Great, if I’m right (at least as much as everyone else), then Jade shouldn’t get in such a twist whenever I make a politically incorrect comment about good, evil, or the Bible. I thought my last post was an excellent, hopeful post. Be a hopeful Christian, do not equate the Bible with the hopelessness and evil of the Koran was the main point.
If Jade is going to assert a version of Christianity that does not exist in the Bible, to counter a point I made, I will respond, hopefully, gently and it will include the bible as back-up.
I certainly will not use profane or inappropriate language.
Its amazing you call me out for my biblical positioning to task in relation to this political discussion vs. Jade’s course, salty, language as offensive. That is pretty funny, Pat. You are saying the bible is more unacceptable than profane language. Guess it shows how far our society has gone.
Just goes to show, hard to tell what will, and will not, offend these days.
Kevin,
Nothing can replace a well used “profane” word especially when deserved. Get off your high horse.
Jade,
Profanity is not an example of how a Christian should behave.
I admit, an occassional slip up once in a while if a drop something on my foot, for instance, but I never would consciously type profanity into a blog discussion.
Ephesians 4:29
“Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.”
I know how you want to use the bible to build people up, so I’d just thought I would help you to do that by gently pointing out that your case for using the bible to build people up is stronger without the profanity.
Kevin,
I understand. You must admit this back and forth can be frustrating. We probably have more in common then either one of us would like to admit. With that said, I will try to express my frustrations in a more appropriate way and will also try to find the common ground.
Sorry for the late post .
Respectfully , modernity in a religion is a ridiculous concept . They all have the same basic beliefs and need a cult following that accepts huge stretches in logic because it is axiomatic . ( the nuns taught us that .)
When Kev quotes the Bible , he believes it because it’s true ( for him) . I think it’s all superstitious hooey , but whatever floats his boat. That is , until he tells me we are going to run the country or state by virtue of his interpretive hooey .
Then we have a problem .
A large group of Christians ( sorry for those Christians who thinks Catholics really aren’t Christians ) believe a wafer and wine is turned into the actual body and blood of Christ on a daily basis . If you can buy that premise , you literally can buy anything including multiplying fishes , plagues of locusts , parting seas ,having a loving God tell you to kill your child , a blue eyed Jewish Carpenter or One God who sometimes is 3 gods but in the end is one God
It’s hard to believe because it’s not believable ,.
Some believe that by quoting a book of super dubious origin, they are the worlds moral superiors .
Superior in some cases to religions that approved of far less violence and have been around centuries longer .
Who exactly are the fanatics ?
I belonged to body and blood tribe as a kid . The one that told us we were waay better than folks like Kevin because we had the true God on our side . we knew we would kick the snot out of public school kids and regular parochial schools ( because our religion was better ( public ) and we recruited better athletes – private -) but it was 50/50 when we played the Jesuits .
The same group allowed pedophiles to rape kids and to put young women into indentured servitude in Ireland in laundries. No beheadings , just child sodomy and virtual slavery that ended in the 1980’s
Debate the Hooey ad nauseum. Just don’t tell me how religion is a good thing for mankind or how modern some are
They ain’t .
No plan , no God , just nature playing a very bad joke on us .
Jade,
Frustrating? I love talking about faith, politics, and religion.
Mark,
I certainly will not defend a lot of what the Roman Catholic Church has done. It is clear you grind an axe against Roman Catholicism/organized religion based on your bad life experience.
Any particular church/church body is definitely not perfect. It is even worse when a church body covers up issues where the leaders are living contrary to the gospel.
Rather than correcting, rebuking, and punishing the bad leader behavior, they reward and transfer the bad behavior. If I belonged to a church body that did that, I’d find a different church.
Unlike Islam, as a Christian, I can point to bible, and say what the Roman Catholic Church has done in all areas you mentioned is contrary to the gospel of Jesus and completely unacceptable. I agree more Christians should have been speaking out against what was going on in the Roman Catholic Church.
Very few Christisns in general are even aware of their Matthew 18 duty to correct their fellow Christians when they see them acting contrary to the gospel, much less have the courage to take action on it.
However, I will say this: I have, in several instances, followed thru with the Matthew 18 opportunity with a fellow Christian to correct and the reaction ranges from “how dare you?”, to realization they need to repent and amend their sin. It is a very difficult thing to do in a society that fosters an attitude that everything is permissible and will look on it that i’m acting all “morally superior” if the person relishes their ongoing, open sin.
So we have immense dueling forces here in society: we want church leaders/members to be corrected, rebuked, and sometimes punished for living contrary to the gospel. However society frowns on that as a whole as being/acting “morally superior”.
Do you see the challenge?
That is pretty funny, Pat. You are saying the bible is more unacceptable than profane language.
Kevin, please re-read what I wrote. Once again you make things up that are never said.
This is a perfect example of when mans laws should have taken the lead. The crimes committed by the Catholic Church were and are punishable by mans law. However, because of the power the church holds in society it was hard for prosecutors to take on this moral machine. It took years and years complaint after complaint for the voices of the victims to be heard. This is the fundamental problem I have abolishing the separation of church and state. No matter my involvement with my church I’m rational enough to know if the separation is abolished or even crossed future crimes committed would be even more difficult to prove. Correcting fellow Christians biblically (Matthew 18) does not work for crimes. Maybe for profanity but not crime. There are many cases in the public eye, “19 kids and counting”, is a good example of a crime being committed and the parents using the bible and spirituality to heal but because they relied on there faith a crime went unpunished. Shameful. The victims (including non family) never saw justice served. Religious cover ups are the historical norm. As a responsible Christian it’s my duty to report the crimes. Somehow, this has all been twisted to make me look like a supporter of evil. Funny how that works. Sounds like the same old same old from religious fanatics.
Kev ,
I had left organized religion long before the scandals of pedophilia or the Irish Laundries .
we speak of America as a Christian country but it was created by religious fanatics who wanted to practice their religion and were fine restricting the beliefs of others . Hence the creation of Maryland .
Only reason I stayed as long as I did was the idea I could be Hitler on steroids but if I repented a nanosecond before death , I get into the last row in heaven .
Sounded like a hell of an insurance policy to me .
I didn’t buy praying to make Free Throws or that we were intrinsically better than those killjoy Lutherans
And Marty Luther who broke up a 1000 year party
I didn’t think that a good god would allow children to die in sunami’s because he had a “better plan ”
for them
I just quit believing because religion makes no sense . It is ritual and superstition ,self aggrandizement of my group over others and a male dominayed hierachy of Magic afficianado’s
If you are a good person , you are my friend ( no matter what you believe )
If you are a Zealot , you don’t need me .
Just listen to God directly talking to you .
( and ask him why he can’t help the Packers to stop the Run while you are talking to him )
Jade,
“Correcting” does include reporting crimes to legal authorities, which are established by God.
Mark,
Pretty clear where you stand. Your choice of course. I would consider your position very zealous as well.
Kevin,
I don’t recall God signing the U.S. Constitution.