Boots & Sabers

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1131, 04 Jan 24

EV Sales Rising, But Still Small Fraction of Sales

Interesting stats in this story.

Ford’s overall 2023 sales are lower than the industry’s sales growth, which auto data firm Motor Intelligence reports topped 15.6 million last year — marking a 12.3% increase from 2022 and the segment’s best performance since more than 17 million vehicles in 2019.


“In a year of challenges, from a labor strike to supply issues, our amazing lineup of gas, electric and hybrid vehicles and our fantastic dealers delivered solid growth and momentum. We have the products that customers want,” Ford CEO Jim Farley said in a release.


Electric vehicle sales came in at 72,608 for the year, up 18% from 2022 and boosted by nearly 26,000 EVs sold during the fourth quarter.

EV sales are increasing at a faster rate than overall sales, but percentages are deceptive when being based on such a small number. Overall, EV sales were still only about 3.6% of Ford’s sales despite them pushing it hard. It’s telling that the quote from Ford’s CEO leads with “GAS, electric and hybrid…”


1131, 04 January 2024


  1. dad29

    4Q sales have a lot to do with tax-credits. The damn cars didn’t suddenly get better.

  2. jonnyv

    Dad29. The cars are fine. Many of the EVs are brand new models. They have no more failure rate than any other first gen ICE car. Whenever a manufacturer comes out with a brand new model they tend to have issues. It isn’t usually until they get a 2nd generation that many of the kinks are worked out. If you don’t want to buy a first gen car, I wouldn’t blame you… but at least be realistic as to what the issues are.

  3. dad29

    Less than advertised range. Horrible “re-fueling” situation nationally. Battery fires–so serious that insurers force dealers to keep the EVs out of the showroom AND out of the service department overnight. Straight-line depreciation to ZERO at year 10. Tow what the trucks advertise as ‘towing capacity,’ watch the range drop like a rock.

    No doubt, JonnyV. They’re just fine.

  4. jonnyv

    Yeah, those original 10 year Tesla Roadsters that are still going for 100K. That is really close to zero. Or the NON collector Model S from 2013/14 still going for 18 – 20K. You are so blind to your hate of the vehicles, you don’t even bother to understand the market.

    As far as advertised range, that is in “optimal conditions”. As with anything with a battery, if you push it or use it in sub-optimal conditions it isn’t going to get what is advertised. The 2019 Macbook I am writing this on will still get 4 hours of charge, but if I am watching YouTube it gets like 2. That is how batteries work. Did you know that you don’t get the advertised gas mileage if you drive with the AC on and all the windows down going 75mph too?!? SHOCKING!

    I can’t find anything about your insurance claims. Feel free to point me to your source. LOL.

  5. Mar

    Oh, Johnny, I live in an area where we have lots of tourists that have EV cars.
    I see them pull up to a charging station and 9 out of 10 times, they are preparing for a picnic or go to the local Walmart.
    Meanwhile, while driving a taxi, I’m in our of the gas station in 5 minutes or less.
    EV trucks and cars are a piece of crap

  6. dad29

    I happen to know several dealers who sell EVs. You don’t.

    All of them have said those damn things can NOT be kept inside per their insurance carriers.

    Collector cars ALWAYS get premium prices. As to the others? Throw as much as you want into a battery with an auto body attached when the battery’s lifespan is likely less than 5 years and replacement cost is around $10K. Like they say, a fool and his money are soon parted.

  7. jonnyv

    Mar, you are judging people who are taking their time charging their car??? And because an ICE car can do it faster? Then guess what, all trucks are trash because my 11-gallon Honda fit fills up faster than them. In fact, Vespa’s for everyone! What a stupid argument. There are plenty of reasons to have concerns about EVs. The charging time is probably the worst and dumbest. Go back to a horse Mar, no refill time at all. Imagine yelling at Henry Ford and telling him how horses are better because there are not enough roads!!!

    Talk about how we are reliant on foreign countries for the battery materials. Although OPEC sets the price for oil. And our oil isn’t ideal for making gasoline.
    Talk about the lack of current infrastructure. Although that will get sorted out in the next 10 years as car charging ports unify and gas stations start putting in charging stations.
    Talk about how they are more expensive. Although they will continue to drop in price as battery tech improves.
    Talk about the environmental impact of battery disposal. Although then you would have to admit how ICE is bad for the environment as well.

    You can poo-poo EVs all you want and look like a luddite. There will be a use for ICE vehicles for decades to come. But to pretend EVs are NOT the future is moronic. I will sit on my 1008% increase my TSLA stock has made me with a smile. I cashed out half of it for 20K and moved it to an ETF late last year. I only wish I had the cash to invest more when I got it in 2017 for $21 a share. If I would have invested in Exxon… I would be up a total of about 10%.

  8. jonnyv

    Dad29, I am not doubting your claim about the showroom. I just wanted some proof.

    And I refuted your 10 year to ZERO claims… with actual facts and all you can respond with is a proverb.

    And there will be a new industry that pops up recycling the batteries for valuable minerals. It is already starting.,1.5%20million%20EVs%20%2D%20CES%20said.

  9. dad29

    I take the dealers at their word. Besides, none of them are going to send me copies of their insurance agreements.

    By the way, if the dealers are required to keep their EV’s outside, it’s probably a good idea for you to do the same. You do have a family you’d like to protect, right?

    Proverbs are proverbs for a reason, friend.

    As to the recycling? You skipped over the part where the US taxpayer is “helping” them. I’m sure you had a reason for that.

  10. Jason

    >What a stupid argument.

    You made it stupid with your idiotic “counter argument”. Compare the time savings of pumping 11 gallons to 30… But ignore that even pumping 100 gallons is vastly quicker than waiting 1 hours for a Tesla supercharger – if you can find one.

    He also wasn’t judging anyone… He was pointing out the changes required in trip planning to go from gas to electric.

    You are an ass.

  11. dad29

    By the way, jonnyV, context matters, right?

    A report from, a search engine for auto buyers, found that the average price for all cars declined 5% in 2023 compared with 2022.

    >b>But the resale price EVs plunged 33%.

    While a used EV sold for an average of $52,821 in 2022, it went for less than $35,000 in 2023, which means they can be had for just slightly more than the average price for all cars.

    Even with this dramatic decline in prices, it took 40% longer to sell an EV in 2023 than it did the year before.

    That’s embarrassing for EV’s. Should be a lot of fun to watch the prices in the next few months!!

  12. dad29

    Wait, wait!! It gets worse!!

    But it’s not just the used EV market that is cratering. iSeeCars found the same trends with new EV sales. The time it took to get an EV off a dealer’s lot more than doubled in 2023. It now takes roughly three times as long to sell an EV than a conventional car, despite price cuts and Biden’s huge EV tax credit.

    Nearly half of EV owners buy a gas-powered one for their next vehicle, according to a study from S&P Global, titled “Does the auto industry have an EV loyalty problem?”

    So. The value of used EV’s crashes by 33% in 1 year. Dealers are choking on new- and used-EV inventory. (I know 2 dealers who sliced their EV order by 80%).

    MOST significant? Car buyers do NOT buy EVs twice. One ass-whipping is enough, thankyouverymuch!

  13. MjM

    Yeah, those original 10 year Tesla Roadsters that are still going for 100K.

    A ‘57 Chevy Belair will get you $75k-$150k, depending.

    Or the NON collector Model S from 2013/14 still going for 18 – 20K.

    Or a Jeep Wrangler Sport. The difference? The cheapest 2013 S was $30,000 more – or twice the price – than the most expensive 2013 Sport.

    4Q sales have a lot to do with tax-credits.

    Indeed. Most new Es no longer qualify for (we paid for) g’vment subsidies (like the Mustang E). I can’t wait for the screams coming from the new E owner brainiacs who didn’t realize that taking delivery after Jan 1 puts them in the outs.

    Dealers are choking on new- and used-EV inventory.

    And half of all Buick dealers quit rather than go EV.

  14. Mar

    Oh, JohnnyV, I admire your persistence in voicing your views but you’re just plain wrong.
    EV batteries pollute far more than gas engines.
    When a EV vehicle catches on fire, it takes hours to put out the fire.
    When a gas engine catches fire, it takes a few minutes.
    So, you would have a fire lasting hours to put out, with all that toxic smoke vs a gas engine fire that takes a few minutes to put out.
    Ok, stick your story.

  15. jonnyv

    Mar, you are right about the fires, they take a lot more to put out. But you leave out that they are 4 to 5 times LESS likely to happen than an ICE engine as well.

    “When looking at vehicle fires in Norway – which boasts the largest percentage of EVs – it was found that there were four to five times more fires in ICE-powered vehicles as compared to their EV counterparts. More specifically, there were 3.8 fires per 100,000 electric or hybrid cars in 2022, with 68 fires per 100,000 cars of all fuel types.”

    And this is another reason that there is a lot of research into other battery types for EVs.

    MJM. Those Buick dealers quit (took a buyout) because they don’t want to sell a vehicle that they do so LITTLE service on, NOT because they aren’t selling. Buick hasn’t even released an EV yet. AND they would need to upgrade their equipment and training ($300K). Plus with the further threats of direct sales, the dealerships see the potential future.

    Jeep Wranglers are a very interesting case. They are a highly sought after vehicle, almost regardless of the year. I never personally saw the appeal, but I have a few friends who have always wanted a Jeep Wrangler that they can take the doors off and cruise around in, even if they ever go off road with it. All about the look and style.

  16. Merlin

    How well do those EVs work during a typical upper midwestern winter?

  17. dad29

    Those Buick dealers quit (took a buyout) because they don’t want to sell a vehicle that they do so LITTLE service on, NOT because they aren’t selling.

    Oh, really? So they walked away from all that ICE service business because they won’t have EV service business? The money is NOT in oil-changes, pal. They got out because they saw EVs piling up on dealer lots, unsold, with no bids. And following your “logic,” you’re saying that those Buick dealers would put $300K on the table with ZERO return.

    So if I require you to spend $300K on hardware but forbid you to use that hardware to make money, you’re happy?


  18. jonnyv

    Merlin. Based on all the Teslas I see drive around in the winter in my neighborhood, I would say that they work pretty well.

    And with the way the climate is going, we may not have to worry about “midwestern winters” for very long. LOL

    Dad29, i am sure you know that dealerships don’t make much money on the new car sales. They make a majority of their money on service, warranties, and financing… as well as incentives from the mothership. But their parts and service are usually the main financial driver of a dealership, usually around 70%. I have talked to a good friend about this who is the service manager at a BMW dealership. They have more margin on their cars, but he still shoots for 80% of the dealerships cost coverage.

    Craig List, if you look at any of the comments in that thread, there are enough people to debunk that post. But, using an X post sure is one source of information… EEESH.

    And with that, this is another thread that I am stepping away from. See ya on another thread boys.

  19. dad29

    Nice mis-direct, pal.

    See, there are Buicks which are ICE. In fact, through today, ALL Buicks are ICE. I have a friend who told me that; he’s a GM for a Buick dealership.

    Now then, jonnyV. When a Buick dealer tosses the franchise, he will give up servicing the ICE Buicks, on which he makes a ton of money. (That is, jonnyV, ALL the Buicks made to date. ALL of them.)

    And, jonnyV, even after Buick comes out with EV’s which will sit on the lot and rust, there will still be ICE Buicks!!! I was told that by a Buick sales-guy that I know. It’s likely that 95%++ of Buicks on the road in 2026 will be ICE.

    Not surprised you are running away. Your trolling doesn’t work when facts get in the way.

    Say hi to your Mommy.

  20. Craig List

    I shared the post without comment. I figured jonnyv would have enough info to debunk an X post. Looks like I won’t hear from him for a while.

  21. MjM

    Popular car rental service Hertz announced it will get rid of 20,000 electric vehicles from its fleet because of the high cost of fixing them.Wash. Times

  22. Craig List

    Better check with jonnyv to see if it’s okay to cite the Washington Times as a source of information.

  23. Merlin

    News reports out of Chicagoland are describing the area’s public EV charging stations as ‘Tesla graveyards’ due to the recent cold temps. Not only is power performance down dramatically, but apparently it’s too cold for a Tesla to even accept a charge. Dead Teslas everywhere. I’m assuming a Tesla’s environmental operating parameters are in the owners manual… right? So it’s on you to know when to leave it in the garage? Just how warm does it have to be for a Tesla to accept a charge?

  24. MjM

    Here ya go, Wiz:

    Saw another story about some guy in Canada charging his Tesla for two hours. He was running the heat at the same time – it was -45 – and he finally gave up when the batt hit 2/3 charged.

  25. Jason

    > So it’s on you to know when to leave it in the garage?

    Can they be parked in a garage?

  26. dad29

    Can they be parked in a garage?

    Depends on how warm you want the rest of your house to be. Fully engulfed? or Partially Demolished?

  27. MjM

    Fully engulfed?

    ~snort~. See? EVs can help you heat your home in these frozen times! No need for that NG furnace! (Or stove)

    Ford just asked 1400 employees at the Dearborn Rouge Electric Vehicle Center to retire or shift to another production facility. This after laying off 700 there back in October. Guess folks are smart enough not to buy the horrid F150 Lighting. And with the Mach E losing its you-paid g’vment “incentive”…..

    Half of those moving are going down the road to the ICE Ranger and Bronco plant.

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