Boots & Sabers

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0744, 12 Jun 15

Education Degree Required

This was highly entertaining. Perhaps Jim Scheuer should look up “effecting” vs. “affecting” before sending out an email about the importance of a degree in education.

———- Forwarded message ———-
From: Jim Scheuer, WMEA President <>
Date: Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:21 AM
Subject: Important Legislation Effecting Teachers in Wisconsin
To: redacted

Please contact your legislators. Time is of the essence, as proposal may be voted on as soon as this week.



WMEA Members –

You have no doubt heard about the proposal currently included in the state budget that would allow for the licensure of music teachers (and those of other subjects, as well) who may not have a bachelor degree, may not be trained in education methods and may not even have a high school diploma. The WMEA has long advocated for music instruction for all students taught by qualified teachers. In light of these developments, the WMEA Executive Board has drafted and approved a letter, which was sent to every member of the state legislature and the governor’s office this week.


We would also encourage you to contact your own legislators and let them know your feelings on this issue. Feel free to use information in our letter as you see fit. You can find contact information for your representatives on the Wisconsin State Legislature website.


Email is the quickest and easiest way to contact lawmakers, but you are also welcome to call or write. Time is of the essence, as this proposal may be voted on as soon as this week.



Jim Scheuer
WMEA President



Link to WMEA letter to Wisconsin State Legislature

Link to Wisconsin State Legislature Website



0744, 12 June 2015


  1. Jadedly Unbiased

    Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe either spelling or use of the words could apply. As far as the topic at hand, I think it’s important to remember there is much more to teaching than the subject or specialty. For example, to be a history teacher (1-8) only 18 credits of the 144 required for a 4 year degree from UW system are actually history oriented classes. The rest are gen. ed. but the vast majority are directly related to teaching principles, classroom dynamics, teaching methods, technology and behavioral management and have little to do with the specialty. To allow those with no training into the classroom will be destructive. I want someone, anyone, to tell me what is the purpose behind this. What will be accomplished? Who will benefit?

  2. Captain Ned

    So, it follows that WMEA would not have considered Muddy Waters or B.B. King “qualified” to teach Wisconsin students in the intricacies of Mississippi blues music.

  3. Jadedly Unbiased

    Hard to teach music when you can’t read music (B.B. couldn’t). How would B.B. deal with disruptive children or children with differing learning abilities. How would B.B. have structured his room to maximize the learning potential of a group of 40 second graders. What other music or instrumentation would B.B. have been able to teach or would he be limited to “Mississippi blues music”. I think it’s very foolish and naive to think all it takes to teach is a skill. Jerry Garcia and Kurt Cobain also had great music skills but I wouldn’t want them anywhere near my children. The mechanic who works on my car has great mechanical skills but has the social skills of a slug. I won’t mention his hygiene. My point is teachers teach all others are unqualified.

  4. Dan

    I am a teacher- special education to be precise.
    Here is where you are wrong.
    For special education students- they have IEPs (a document that says what kind of services a child receives and who will provide it). The student will be provided support in the regular ed. classroom from the special education staff.
    As far as disruptive students- you don’t learn that in college teacher training- you learn from experience and use experience of other teachers. It takes years beyond college to learn these things. It also requires support from the administration and others to helpw ith disruptive students.
    As far as BB King teaching basic music skills. well, King would probably teach advanced classes in high school, where the kids already know the basics and just need the experience of someone who knows how to play music, like a BB King.
    So, your entire premise is all wrong. As I said, I am a teacher and graduated from the U.W. Madison School of Ed. I learned nothing there that would help me teach in the special education classroom. Their teachers could write very good research papers and bring in grants but they didn’t know how to teach in the classroom. I then took classes at Silver Lake College, a small college up in Manitowoc, where I learned a great deal more than at U.W., which is considered a top 10 college in the country, as far as education is concerned.
    Finally, I learned 90% of what I needed to succeed out in the field, with out the help of college professors and their kiss ass TA’s.

  5. Jadedly Unbiased

    I feel sorry for your students. It’s obvious from your statements that your training was years ago. Much has changed. There are courses specifically geared toward behavioral and mentally challenged students. I can give you many examples even from the course selections of Silver Lake College. So Dan, yes you do learn that in college unfortunately for your students you didn’t. I guess what your really saying is you wasted 6 years in college when all you really had to do was play with a guitar. What a shame. That’s okay because this legislation was written to target teachers like you. If you are tenured you won’t be for long. We will see how you like it without the security of tenure. Who uses “college teacher training” to describe professional education programs. Outdated!

  6. Captain Ned

    “Hard to teach music when you can’t read music (B.B. couldn’t). How would B.B. deal with disruptive children or children with differing learning abilities. How would B.B. have structured his room to maximize the learning potential of a group of 40 second graders. What other music or instrumentation would B.B. have been able to teach or would he be limited to “Mississippi blues music”.”

    The condescension, union entitlement, and complete disconnect from reality just radiate from your punctillious (and pustulous) posting. Muddy Waters can’t give a master class because the ‘tards (yes, I went there) won’t get it? BB King can’t play because he doesn’t do urban rap?

    I wash my hands of Useful Idiots (look it up) like you. You care about nothing more than your pension and would block opportunities for your students unless they met all you check boxes, which means Up With People now has its fourth wind.

    Structured his room to maximize the learning potential. In a just world those words would get you a roommate named Tiny in the Graybar Hotel.

  7. Jadedly Unbiased

    And based on your response that contains not one grain of factual support for your position and is littered with abusive and condescending language it’s clear your teachers and parents both failed. Why are you so angry with “‘tards” and “urban rap”? Oh wait, just another racist looking to place blame instead of taking responsibility. I would gladly give you my address. You can come and try to put me in the “Graybar Hotel” with “Tiny”. You act real big from behind your keyboard in your moms basement.

  8. Dan

    Jade, you are just mad that I made you look like a dumb ass when you would not respond to my points. Typical liberal: lose the argument and to show that you lost, you insult the winning side.
    Typical liberal.

  9. Jadedly Unbiased

    Did you bother to check the class list for the education programs at Silver Lake or UW Madison. When you sober up you should re-read these posts, check the course lists and take your self righteous bullshit and shove it as far up your wrong ass as you can reach. You are just another blowhard short on facts.

  10. Terry

    LOL! Jaded and very Biased just got his ass handed to him, again!

  11. Jadedly Unbiased

    LOL, you are an idiot. If “ass handed to him” means no one has offered any factual proof to prove me wrong then I would agree. Neither the “Captain” nor “Dan” has proven anything. I’m glad to see the shit lumping together as it stirs around the cesspool. Well done but nothing proven.

  12. Dan

    Umm, Jade, I don’t need to check the class lists because I am sure they have changed since I went to school because that was about 20 years ago. But thanks for going out of your way to make yourself look like a fool.
    I really hope you get some treatment for your anger outbursts. Actually, I do have some training to help you, so let me know if your need some help because I can help you or find someone who can.
    But please, get some help.

  13. Jadedly Unbiased

    I am glad YOU brought up special education. It’s the perfect example of why this policy is a terrible idea. As I am sure you are aware all public schools are ” inclusive”. Special education students are entitled, by law, to participate in regular classroom activities. Although special ed. students are typically shadowed by support staff this is not always the case. Higher functioning students are often given the freedom to explore their environments and interact with their peers free from their aides (shadows) even though their IEP will follow them until they are twenty one years old.

    I understand twenty years ago disruptive/behavioral issue students didn’t always qualify as special ed. That has changed and your failure to recognize this shows the 90% of what you learned out in the field has actually failed your students.

    So, when B.B. Or Muddy are teaching a music class (lets remember most music teachers (k-12) teach multiple classes not just selective “advanced classes”) without any formal training how exactly are they supposed to deal with or recognize a child with ASD, TBI, ADD/ADHD or dyslexia. Often higher functioning kids go un-diagnosed. Without any formal education how would Muddy or B.B. recognize the warning signs. It is widely recognized by administrators, mental health professionals and parents within school districts the vital role teachers play in the early detection of and continued intervention with learning impairments. The alternative would be screening every child, every year for signs of delay. Or, maybe, B.B. would recognize the signs over the twang of his guitar.

    Special education students as well as typically developing students deserve to have access to the best education tax dollars can buy. Having an accountant teach math (or B.B. teach music) when he or she knows nothing about student assessment and measurement (SED 300), adaptations and modifications (SED 462), technology and media in education (EDU 203), differences in development (EDU 269), curriculum and methods (EDU 271), classroom management and behavior (SED 400) or educational psychology (EDU 270) would be destructive and regressive to all students.

    It is clear you have never been in an “advanced” high school music class. An inability to read music at that level would be as destructive and regressive to those students as an accountant teaching geometry. But wait, according to your “college teacher training” or the 90% or what you have learned in the field we could just have B.B. or Muddy teach that class too.

    Your position, my friend, clearly stems from years of teaching out of a church basement without any hope of tenure. I’m sorry but I decline your offer of help. When I look for help, whether it’s music lessons, education or even behavioral issues (anger) I prefer to have hire an educated, degreed, certified PROFESSIONAL. No disrespect to B.B.

  14. Jadedly Unbiased

    I forgot to mention… When you post rants “at 1:57 am” it’s abundantly clear that you are drunk. Re-read your last comment above. You typed it exactly as your drunk brain was saying it and this isn’t the first time you have posted at the wee hours. Maybe that’s my education being able to see the warning signs of alcoholism. Do you need some help? I could give you a professional referral.

  15. Dan

    First, Jade, I live in the Pacific Time zone, so, I actually wrote the post at 11:57, which is about a half hour after I got off my summer job.
    However, your last post was actually sensible, but wrong.
    As far as Muddy and BB, they would be in advanced placement classes and it is highly unlikely a special education student would be able to be placed in that class, though it is possible a learning disabled might be able to participate in the class- but by that time, the student would be thoroughly vetted from many years of special ed. services and IEP’s,.
    Yes, some kids go through the cracks but by high school, most should be identified, depending on the school district.
    I have seen many a first and second year teachers wash out because of the lousy teacher training they had in college. In college, they teach theory, they don’t teach reality.
    But to show how wrong you are, there are many states that allow teachers who are not certified teach in the classroom while they finish college teaching courses. These teachers, who have a regular class, have teacher mentors and they take classes while they take teacher education classes.
    So, nice try again, Jade, but your are just plain wrong.

  16. Jadedly Unbiased

    Im not sure it matters what time it was when you were drunk typing but again if you need a professional referral I can help you out. Great hypothetical situations but AP music class being taught by a dead guy that can’t read music is just unheard of in WI. If that’s the way it’s done in the Pacific Time zone more power to ya. Who do you suppose would identify the kids who slip through the cracks?… An uneducated music teacher or those special ed. teachers with so much free time they can conduct classroom observations. If Silver Lake College ONLY taught theory that would explain some of the outdated, what used to be called “mainstreaming”, ideas you have about behavior roles in education. In WI we call non certified teachers seeking certification “student teachers”. They are always under supervision and the student teaching always takes place in their last semester of school after they have completed all the required course work. Completely different from a uneducated uncertified musician teaching AP classes. Nice try. I know just a little about education so you can keep trying to bullshit your way around the classroom but I’m afraid you are the one that is wrong. I will give you an A for effort. Oh and by the way… Did I mention that all the classes listed above are from Sliver Lake College Dept. Of Education 2014/15. All have to be completed before one can start their “student teacher” semester. So, nice try again, Dan, but you are just plain wrong!

  17. Dan

    Gee, Jade, I was trying to be nice to you on my last post, but it seems that you are just an ignorant asshhole who really doesn’t know much about anything.
    By the way, you are wrong about Wisconsin. In areas where there are teacher shortages, a non-certified teacher can teach in the classroom with minimal supervision, mainly in the areas of math, science and special ed. under an emergency license for up to 3 years while they gain their certification.
    Nice try, though, but next time, go play in the sandbox with the other children.

  18. Jadedly Unbiased

    Did you notice how you mentioned “emergency license”? Those aren’t just handed out to any dumb ass (like you) who walks in the door. They are given to educators who have completed a professional program but haven’t yet passed the Praxis 2. Nice try but you are the ignorant asshole trying to twist the way the system REALLY works to try and win an argument you lost from the minute you opened your drunken mouth. You should use your resources or is that another area they skipped at Silver Lake College. The more you talk the more I understand why you support non degreed/non certified teachers in classrooms. Its obvious you are have trouble passing recertification. Just so you are aware, WI will still require certification from educated teachers in CORE areas. That includes special ed. Don’t buy your airline ticket yet you won’t be able to teach here either well at least until you pass the recertification. Nice try, though, but next time, go play in the sandbox with the other children and non tenured uneducated scum bags that think molding precious young minds is as easy as playing a guitar. You really should stick with your summer job and getting drunk of course.

  19. Jadedly Unbiased

    Here’s more factual proof quoted directly from the WDPI website and shows you clearly have no clue.

    WI Administrative Rule PI 8.01(2)(j)
    Wisconsin Educational Standards j,k,l, articulate that music instruction shall be provided in accordance with a written comprehensive music curriculum including development experiences involving singing, playing instruments, listening, movement, creative expression and…and… Reading music.

    Furthermore here are the general requirements for educator licensing in WI:
    -a minimum of a bachelors degree from a regionally accredited college or university
    -completion of a state approved educator perpetration program
    – satisfactory background check
    – passing scores on required tests

    “Emergency license authorizes a LICENSED TEACHER to teach an assignment other than that for which the teacher holds a license while completing an educator perpetration program for that specific assignment. The license must be requested by employing school district and is valid for 1 YEAR.”

    I hope this “mainstreaming” helped and you now fully understand but if you need more guidance please feel free to contact someone who gives a shit.

  20. Jadedly Unbiased

    Not perpetration but preparation. Auto correct got me again.

  21. Jadedly Unbiased

    Above, you did say “emergency license”. However, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were talking about “alternative route to licensure”.

    Alternative route to licensure was created to address the shortage of qualified licensed educators in certain critical shortage content fields. These licenses also are not just handed out to any guitar player.

    To complete an alternative route to licensure program one must first hold a bachelors degree.
    And also:
    -meet WI statutory requirements specified in WI. Stats. 118.19
    -complete the pedagogy
    -complete and pass required exams(praxis)
    -complete student teaching
    -provide evidence of proficiency in the WI Educators Standards through a portfolio
    So as you can see either license requires far more then you have stated. I can continue to beat this horse that’s as dead as B.B. But I believe my point has been proven. Enjoy the sand box!

  22. Dan

    Thank you for making my point, Jade. You start out with only a bachelor degree and then work your way up.
    But hey, if you don’t want your kids to be taught by Bill Gates who didn’t finish college, in computers or business, so be it.
    I would love to have my kids be educated by Scott Walker on politics or Wisconsin History.
    I would love to have my kids, who are in advanced band, be taught by BB King, and scores of musicians, including Itzhak Perlman and Barry Manilow. I would to have a rancher or farmer teach agriculture in rural schools over someone who never farmed but read some books on farming.
    The Amish schools have usually Amish women teaching in their schools, up until 8th grade and then the kids are home schooled. Who can argue that the Amish know their farming, wood crafts, quilting, animal raising and cooking better than most of the English. Many have very good business skills, so much so, they run their businesses and farms.
    Education is what you make of it. Just because you graduate school does not mean you will be a good teacher. Like wise, just because you did not graduate from a teacher college does not mean you will not be a good teacher. It all depends on the person and how much they want to teach.
    I hope you get this simple, down to your level explanation.

  23. Jadedly Unbiased

    The few lucky ones like Bill Gates, who did by the way have a great education until he found a cash cow, are the rare examples. I wouldn’t advise my children or yours to put all their eggs in that basket. How many Amish get full scholarships to universities. But weren’t we talking about the effectiveness of untrained, uncertified educators managing classrooms and the education of our youth. I absolutely agree some who seek to be educators won’t cut it as teachers and others who aren’t degreed may make great teachers. However, WI has certain requirements that have to be met before one is given the opportunity to teach. Simply having a skill doesn’t mean you can automatically get the keys to the school. Every curriculum has set standards and any one teaching that curriculum will have to receive the training/certification (Competency) to successfully met those standards. What is truly unfortunate is your inability to concede to the points I have proven. One of the best qualities of a true man is to admit when they are wrong and try to find the reasonable answer. I’m sorry to say I did not make your point for you. I actually proved you wrong on every point you recklessly made. I was wrong giving factual data that was above special ed. comprehension. If you would like I could give you a play by play, point for point recount of facts and the proof of you getting your ass handed to you but I wouldn’t want to take away from your sand box time.

  24. Jadedly Unbiased

    If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. -Abraham Maslow

    It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. -Epictetus

  25. Dan

    Whatever Jade, you can pontificate quite well, but that doesn’t mean you are right.
    Maybe someone outside of education may believe you but those in the know, know you are wrong.

  26. Jadedly Unbiased

    The proof is listed above for all to see and based on that those in education that are following this debate think you are a fool. Just to clarify I will list the points where you are wrong.
    1) “as far as disruptive students- you don’t learn that in college teacher training”… Wrong. I listed the required classes including those dealing with behavior.
    2)”King would probably teach advanced classes in high school where kids already know the basics and just need the experience of someone who knows how to play music”… Wrong. WI requires ALL music teachers be able to teach movement, listening, singing, playing instruments, creative expression and reading music.
    3)”By the way, you are wrong about Wisconsin. In areas where there are teacher shortages a non certified teacher can teach in a classroom with minimal supervision”… “under an emergency license for up to 3 years”… Wrong. Wrong program and wrong time period as quoted above directly from the WDPI website.
    Should I continue by critiquing some of your theories on education or do you want to get back to the sand box?

  27. Jadedly Unbiased

    Children must be taught how to think, not what to think. -Margaret Mead

  28. Jadedly Unbiased

    Mark Belling’s Op-Ed in today’s Waukesha Freeman (next to Mr. Robinson’s fine column) takes a heavy handed swipe at Wisconsin teachers. Mr. Belling resorts to terminology such as idiotic, dumbed down and ever gripping to describe teachers and the provisions established to regulate and assure competency.

    Mr. Belling asserts people the likes of Bill Gates, J.K.Rowlings, Alan Greenspan and Stephen Hawking should be entitled to teach high school. First, every person listed by Mr. Belling is highly educated and well beyond someone with just a skill. Second, to assume anyone with that caliber of expertise and education would want to teach high school is ridiculous. Third, the pool of uncertified and non degreed candidates would more likely reflect the likes of Goober Pyle, Raymond Babbitt or Karl Childers. Know one in their right mind is going to give up a full time day job with benefits to teach part time with no benefits. I can guarantee none of the previously mention millionaires are coming to teach at Kaukauna High.

    The removal of this provision from the Wisconsin Statutes is really one more systematic step towards dismantling public education in favor of a privatized for-profit educational system infused with Christianity.

    I’m surprised Mr. Belling, a product of Wisconsin public education, has such resentment for the system that gave him the stepping stones to success. Then again and based on the dribble continually rolling off his tongue maybe the system failed him. I certainly wouldn’t want Mark Belling teaching communications to my children even with his degree from UW La Crosse.

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