Restaurant Jobs in NYC Disappear After Arbitrary Wage Floor Imposed

Governor Evers wants this in Wisconsin.

Data show that following the labor movement’s “Fight for $15” victory, which imposed steep annual increases in mandatory wages for workers, New York City experienced its sharpest decline in restaurant jobs in nearly 20 years.

Restaurants tend to operate on famously low profit margins, typically 2 to 6 percent. So a 40 percent mandatory wage increase over a two-year period is not trivial.

In response to the minimum wage hikes, New York City restaurants did what businesses tend to do when labor costs rise: they increased prices and reduced labor staff and hours.

For example, Lalito’s, a popular restaurant on Bayard Street, recently raised its menu prices 10-15 percent, Eater New York reports.

A New York City Hospitality Alliance survey also showed that three out of four full-service restaurants said they planned to reduce employee hours. Nearly half of those surveyed said they planned to eliminate some job positions in 2019.

93 Responses to Restaurant Jobs in NYC Disappear After Arbitrary Wage Floor Imposed

  1. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Duh!

    If minimum wage went to $15, half my staff would be fired instantly, Many are not even worth $10 an hour given their irregular work attendance, lateness, job effort, etc.

    What did libs think was going to happen here? Prices jacked, service gets slow and worse, and cleanliness will suffer because cleaning becomes unaffordable. Cleanliness ratings in municipalities with this have dropped HUGE with health departments.

    So minimum wage escalation destroys food safety, keep that in mind when you eat in one of these oppressive liberal cities! Liberals hate food safety.

  2. Le Roi du Nord says:

    k:

    Sounds like you don’t do a very good job of selecting good employees.  I’m sure your local Tech College has management classes you could take to improve your skills in that area.

    Could you show us all any research that proves your contention that, “minimum wage escalation destroys food safety”?   Again, facts would enhance your credibility.

    It seems like an odd discussion, as just a short time ago Owen argued for higher wages to attract better qualified employees.

  3. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Even liberals admit raising minimum wage dirties up restaurants.

    Why are you against food safety?

  4. Mar says:

    Liberals are quite stupid and don’t learn from their mistakes.
    When Obamacare was passed and mandated health insurance for workers above 39 hours, most employers cut the hours of many people.
    So, now the raise the minimum wage and so people are fired or hours are reduced.
    Liberals don’t like the lower level employees. They would rather see them on welfare and food stamps.
    If you ever see an intelligent liberal, you need to capture it because they are a very rare, near extinct specie.

  5. Le Roi du Nord says:

    k:

    I congratulate you on using factual sources for your information.  It must have been a tremendous internal struggle for you to cite NPR as a source , seeing how you have always condemned them and other fact-based media.  Keep up the good work!!

     

  6. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Nord,

    So you admit raising the minimum wage dirties up restaurants and kills jobs?

    This was reported in all QSR industry publications.  NPR only reported it because they were concerned about dropping restaurant health inspection scores.

    Naturally, NPR had a “balme the owner” tinge to the story rather than blaming the insane liberals.

  7. Le Roi du Nord says:

    If that is what NPR said, I’ll go along with it.  I didn’t see any “balme the owner” in the story, but I don’t normally assign blame without listening to both sides, and usually don’t blame anyone unless they truly deserve it.

    But wouldn’t it be in the best interests of any owner, you included, to make sure their establishments met all health and safety standards?  I would think the potential liability would be a concern to any owner, liberal or conservative, R or D.  It sure would be important to me..

  8. jjf says:

    I’ll ask the same question I always ask.  If we abolish the minimum wage, how little should the average person be willing to work for?

    Who benefits more from a minimum wage?  Employers or employees?

  9. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Nord,

    Labor has to be maintained as a certain % of sales in order for any restaurant to be profitable.

    Let’s say sales are $200,000 for the restaurant.   And labor has to be under 26% of sales (including FICA, unemployment taxes, bonuses, benefits, etc.).

    That leaves $52,000 for wages.   If average wage is $10/hour inclusive of wages and benefits, that is 5200 labor hours.

    If minimum wage goes to $15 and hour and top line sales do not change, and operator has to maintain $52,000 for wages in this example.   There is now only 3467 labor hours available to do the same amount of work!   That is 1733 less labor hours.   How does a restaurant make that up:

    1.) Automate.   Get pre cut onions, tomatoes, cakes, treats, made by machine.

    2.) raise prices.   In a restaurant environment, that can quickly cut demand.   So this option is super risky.

    3.) Cut labor hours as dictated and make everyone work harder.  (Do more in less time)  Natural result is: cornors get cut, and cleanliness routines suffer because an already stressed employee just had a ton more stress added to their plate.

    4.) Layoff staff.

    Other than #1, which is nice for “Layoff staff”, they are all unpleasant.

    Nobody wants cornors cut, that is why we employ enough to keep facility clean, but if liberals make that impossible, not surprised if that category suffers.

    Alternative is: just going out of business, which has also been a huge problem in Seattle.

    If you are on the fence about this, you are an indifferent idiot.  Liberal policy hurts people

  10. Le Roi du Nord says:

    You had me thinking until you called me an idiot.  It is no wonder you have struggled so mightily throughout your life, seeing as you have such abysmal social skills.

  11. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Nord,

    I can’t believe you took a position you need to sit back and “analyze the facts” while people are being hurt and businesses destroyed by this awful liberal policy.

    You have to be concise about denouncing evil policy that hurts people.

     

  12. jjf says:

    It’s simple, Le Roi.  Kevin doesn’t want to change anything.  He thinks the minimum wage is just fine.  His business is just fine, can’t imagine anything that could be improved.  He’ll also curse the welfare state.  He doesn’t see the connection.

  13. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Jjf,

    In my pretend business example above, how do you pay for the minimum wage increase in the example?

    Without going out of business?

  14. Le Roi du Nord says:

    k:

    I always try to look at both sides, listen to the pros and cons of the issue.  Knee-jerks reactions are your forte, and I’ll leave them to you.  At least you are consistent.

  15. Jason says:

    >Knee-jerks reactions are your forte, and I’ll leave them to you.

     

    Did you learn from your knee jerk reation to the Covington Teens / Nathan Phillips doo-doo that you stepped in?   Remember how easily I trolled you with that, and you were blasting the punk MAGA hat wearing teens for attacking a defenseless native american.

    Let’s be honest, and adults, for once… you’re a hypocrite.

  16. Le Roi du Nord says:

    Nope, don’t recall that because it didn’t happen.  What I pointed out was that the KY Diocese jumped in right away, and probably without all the knowledge they should have had.

    So let us all be adults, and honest ones at that.

  17. jjf says:

    You said it, Kevin.  Your example is pretend.  Or to be more generous, hypothetical.

    I’m perfectly familiar with the idea that, ceteris paribus, wages going up means something else has to give.  I don’t pretend to be an economics genius, but I would guess that I’ve read more Friedman, von Mises, and Hayek than you have.

    I’m also aware that the minimum wage is an artificial construct forced upon us by the evil government, and that without it, the cost of labor might be different.

    But if we were talking about an increase in the price of milk or methylcellulose, you’d find a way to adjust, or more dramatically put “go out of business.”

    With the minimum wage, presumably every other similar nearby business would be under the same pressure, even those who don’t use milk or thickeners.

    We should also be wise enough to consider, as many argue, that a low  minimum wage could influence the demand for welfare services for food or health care, and that some retailers might benefit in this fashion, and that society as a whole might be able to better redistribute such a safety net by raising the minimum wage instead of adding more welfare.

  18. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    jjf,

    In other words, you have no solution exscept risking food safety, LAYOFFS, AND automation.

    You liberals disappoint.

  19. jjf says:

    Solution?  I’m supposed to find a solution?  A solution to what?  You can’t even imagine that there could be a problem.

    You seem to oppose the very notion of a minimum wage, you seem to say you’re already paying some of your employees too much (based on what value they contribute to the price you seem to think the market will bear on the products you sell), you can’t imagine anything else changing about your business model.  You can’t imagine raising the minimum wage, you can only imagine lesser tasks where you’d want to pay someone even less to do them.

    Here are some “hypothetical problems” from the other perspective.  The minimum wage you’d prefer to pay isn’t enough to keep someone alive.  The minimum wage is no doubt an artificial construct created by the government, as an aid to improve the lot of the lowest-paid.  What rationale went into its creation, how might it need to be adjusted over time based on other economic changes?

    Food safety? You’re telling me you couldn’t deliver a rant about the evil government imposing onerous regulations upon your business?  Layoffs?  You care about layoffs?  Automation?  If you could buy a Dilly Bar making machine, you’d cheerfully do the math to determine if it was cost effective and profitable in the long run.  You aren’t opposed to automation.

  20. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    What a righteous indignation sermon from church of liberalism!

    No solutions, just bitching with other people’s resources and livelihood.

    If you are so special, you do it and pay far above market wages…,see how far you get.

    My guess is: less than 3 months. Then what happens to your workers when you are bankrupt?

  21. Pat says:

    Kevin,

    If you’re worried about the cleanliness of your establishment, I would suggest spending less time on Boots and Sabers and more time cleaning.

  22. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Pat,

    I’m not worried, unless minimum wage goes up to $15/hour, then I worry about all restaurants.

    If it makes you feel better, I am taking orders in drive, phone calls and doing paperwork while chatting with the libs here.

    Just warning againthorrible liberal policy and destruction it leaves and its blatant disregard for what happens to health and safety in these liberal hellholes.

    I don’t want that for anyone.

  23. Pat says:

    Kev,

    You are truly a saint!!

  24. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Pat,

    I am!

  25. jjf says:

    Again, Kevin, what’s the problem, what does a solution look like?

    How are you proposing to convince anyone to make any change to the minimum wage laws, be it lowering it or raising it?

  26. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Jjf,

    I’m for leaving WI one alone.

    Affords most opportunity.

    For lowering it where liberal craziness has pushed it above $10. It has destroyed opportunity and needlessly lowered health standards.

  27. Jason says:

    >Nope, don’t recall that because it didn’t happen.  What I pointed out was that the KY Diocese jumped in right away, and probably without all the knowledge they should have had.

    So, you’re such a small person that you have to lie about what happened?  Nothing but a typical left revisionist.

     

    What you pointed out was that a LOT of people jumped in without all the knowledge they should have.. yourself included.  It’s funny – the truth and extended videos were already out when I raised the comment about the event.  You immediately jumped right in with both feet about how terrible those MAGA teens were.  Except I already knew the truth about the event, and figured correctly that you would fall out of your chair on it.  You did, the truth came out further, and you back peddled like a little bitch.

    You got trolled hard little one.  Now go ahead and continue revising the facts.

  28. Le Roi du Nord says:

    little j:

    Live in whatever version of reality you prefer.  Makes no difference to me.  But if you have particular standards you apply to truth, make sure you are consistent.  You need to work on that…..

  29. Jason says:

    >Makes no difference to me.

    Leroy, if you’re going to sit here and lie about the events that occurred, then it is obvious to us all just how much difference it does make to you.   Poor little troll.

  30. jjf says:

    Leaving minimum wage alone while inflation continues to creep upward?  And your prices creep upward?  Do you see what that’s doing to the people at the low end of the wage scale?

  31. Owen Owen says:

    Bear in mind that when we are talking about the minimum wage, we are only talking about roughly 1.6% of the entire workforce in Wisconsin. And 51% of them are under 25 years old (read: kids still in school).

  32. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Great point Owen.

    None of my adults are below $10/hour. It’s the entry level teenager’s is where this hurts the most. It takes a while to instill decent work habits. Some are not worth $8/hour.

  33. Mark Hoefert says:

    Almost two years ago while in high school my daughter got her 1st part-time job, at a local department store.  I expected that she would be getting minimum wage ($7.25) – she did not even ask what she was going to get paid, as she had absolutely no prior work experience and was just glad to get something.  I was quite surprised to see $9.10 per hour on her 1st paycheck.  At 6 months she was making $10.00 and at one year she was raised to $10.40.  She left that for a part-time job in elder care for $14.00 and hour, in a student on-call position.  She did not have any prior experience in that kind of job either.

    Seems like the market is doing quite well at pushing wages up.

    Not sure where the mindset comes from that each and every job must pay “a living wage” and where $15.00/hour is deemed sufficient to live on.  Both are fallacies. Some jobs exist for purposes other than to make “a living wage” – people who need to build a work history, to rehabilitate a prior poor work history, have an inability to perform at a level worthy of “a living wage”, are looking to earn something to supplement their household income, maybe trying to earn the minimum Social Security quarters, etc.

     

     

  34. jjf says:

    Bear in mind that if we talk about all the people who are earning $15 an hour or less, it’s a much bigger fraction than the 1.6% who earn exactly the minimum.  On the order of 40%?  So yes, if the minimum would increase to $15, it would affect a significant number of employees and employers.

     

  35. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    jjf,

    You do that, and you will throw people out of work.

    Why don’t you employ people and show us how it is done….until then you should pipe down if you are not going to put your investment where your mouth is.

     

  36. jjf says:

    Yes, I think it’s important to have that discussion.  If you paid attention to what I wrote above, you’d see I know that.

    I think it would be great to have an extended political debate at the national level about the minimum wage.  Politics should involve discussion and debate.

    And no, that sort of debate doesn’t mean only the employers get to speak.

    How easily you slip into “pipe down” mode.

  37. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    jjf,

    The problem is, you do not practice what your preach…WITH YOUR MONEY.

  38. jjf says:

    You can see what I do with my money?

    Why shouldn’t everyone be able to debate the minimum wage?

  39. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Jjf,

    Do you have employees?

    How many?

    Range of pay?

    How many years in business?

  40. jjf says:

    Here, Kevin, let me hand you my diary, I’m sure there’s no one looking who’d get quite excited by doxxing me.

    If you think only employers get to speak about the minimum wage, do you also think that only women get to decide what they can do with their bodies?

  41. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Jjf,

    I gave you a chance to “walk your talk” in your SJW attitudes.

    How many people do you employ at $15/ hour or higher?

    You talk big until it is your money.

    You are all talk and no action.

  42. Paul says:

    According to MANTA, John Foust employs nobody.

  43. jjf says:

    Kevin, tell me more about the Bible and race and whether only women can weigh in on the laws that affect only them.

    Meanwhile, let’s cherry-pick the Roman Catholic catechism, straight from the Vatican:

    2432 Those responsible for business enterprises are responsible to society for the economic and ecological effects of their operations.218 They have an obligation to consider the good of persons and not only the increase of profits. Profits are necessary, however. They make possible the investments that ensure the future of a business and they guarantee employment.
    2433 Access to employment and to professions must be open to all without unjust discrimination: men and women, healthy and disabled, natives and immigrants.219 For its part society should, according to circumstances, help citizens find work and employment.220
    2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.221 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. “Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good.”222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.
    2435 Recourse to a strike is morally legitimate when it cannot be avoided, or at least when it is necessary to obtain a proportionate benefit. It becomes morally unacceptable when accompanied by violence, or when objectives are included that are not directly linked to working conditions or are contrary to the common good.
    2436 It is unjust not to pay the social security contributions required by legitimate authority.

  44. Paul says:

    Wrong thread.

  45. jjf says:

    No, on-topic.

    But do you meet Kevin’s requirements, Paul?  Anyone who doesn’t employ minimum wage workers isn’t allowed to have an opinion here.

  46. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Jjf,

    I don’t employ minimum wage workers.

    I don’t agree with many things in Roman Cathomic Catechism.

    I don’t have much problem with part you quoted. No where does it say “thou shall pay $15/hour even if employee is irresponsible, lazy, insubordinate, and has bad manners.” Rewarding bad employees with an artificially high wage is not good for good/great employees, or the Heath of the business and management.

    Arguing for $15/hour minimum wage runs counter to the catechism directive.

  47. Le Roi du Nord says:

    Isn’t it the hiring authority that is responsible for hiring employees that are irresponsible, lazy, insubordinate, and bad mannered ?  It sure was when I hired folks.  Or are you just playing your victim card again?

  48. jjf says:

    And nowhere does it say that today’s minimum wage is at exactly the right place where God or man wants it to be.  It’s up for debate.

    If you think only employers get to speak about the minimum wage, do you also think that only women get to decide what they can do with their bodies?

  49. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Nord,

    Maybe we are working to give a recovering alcoholic a chance…

    Maybe some with no job skills an opportunity to learn….

    Maybe giving training to someone who lacks social skill…

    You are so obtuse in your hate.

  50. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Jjf,

    If is employers money.

    What makes you think you can manage my business finances better than me?

    Do you know something about my employees work performance I don’t?

    You come off as hopelessly arrogant.

  51. jjf says:

    Arguably it’s everyone’s money, in the same way that welfare payments are everyone’s tax dollars.  As for employers, your first remedy would be to raise prices, and again, I understand that is detrimental to anyone’s business, but ultimately the costs would be passed on to your customers.  You have no intent on simply eating any increase in the minimum wage, right, no more than you’d simply eat a higher price for Dilly Bar sticks or milk or methylcellulose.

    If you think only employers get to speak about the minimum wage, do you also think that only women get to decide what they can do with their bodies?

  52. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Jjf,

    “…,It’s everyone money.”

    All I heard was “Ya mule!”, and the slavemaster jiffy helping himself to my wallet, but not my long hours and dedication, and sacrifice!

    If it’s so easy to pay $15/hour, show us by employing people at that rate or higher long term!!!

    Put up or shut up!

  53. Le Roi du Nord says:

    k:

    By the sounds of your complaining you don’t hire well, don’t train employees, and don’t set goals or performance standards.  But you sure know how to whine and assess blame.  If you don’t hire well don’t blame anyone but yourself.

  54. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Nord,

    How many do you employ at $15/hour?

    Put your money where your mouth is big talker?

    Be part of solution, you pay people $15/hour as an employer????

    Stop whining.

  55. Le Roi du Nord says:

    As Town Chair I now have 8 folks part-time doing maintenance, plowing, recycling center, building inspection, etc.  All get more than $15/hr.   When working for the State I had a staff of 6 professionals.  Hired, fired, trained, supervised, assigned work, and was responsible for maintaining performance, output and decorum.  Maybe you should take on some of that responsibility rather than blaming others….

  56. Jason says:

    Leroy, you just proved that you cannot understand a simple question. Kevin asked how many your employ, not how many you supervise. Wow those northwoods are dense.

  57. Le Roi du Nord says:

    8

  58. Jason says:

    Doubling down on the stupidity.  Loud and proud Leroy!

  59. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Nord,

    Using taxpayer money to pay people is not YOU paying.

    When it comes from YOUR pocket, you let me know before you talk so big!

    You are laughable.

  60. Le Roi du Nord says:

    k:

    Well I pay taxes, maybe more than you, so I am employing them.  Your employees are funded by the sale of nutrient deficient faux dairy treats.

    But we both are responsible for the performance of our respective employees. But you don’t seem to accept the mantle of responsibility.  I do.

  61. Jason says:

    Kevin, he’s a typical liberal, all talk about how things should be, but never has had actual skin in the game.  He really thinks he’s an employer because he pays taxes?   Wow, what a potato head.

  62. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Nord,

    I fund and sign the actual paychecks/payrolls…yet I don’t accept responsibility?

    You don’t.

    Give me a break.

    I think “potato head” is way to kind for this kind of nonsense.

  63. dad29 says:

    LeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeRoy is a troll, Jason.  And it could well be his 10-year-old nephew writing his responses.

  64. jjf says:

    Uh oh, Kevin’s back to suggesting that only employers can have an opinion about the minimum wage.   Did he answer my question about laws that only affect women?  I don’t see it.

    Le Roi, how many times have you heard someone say “I pay your salary” when they’re denigrating some public employee?  I know I have heard it many times.

  65. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Jjf,

    It is not your money or livlihood at stake, so keep your hands out of my pocket.

    Until you make a payroll or run a business, you are totally clueless as to what it takes.

    Your opinion on this is like Bill Clinton trying to teach about marital fidelity.

    And I’d still have more respect for Bill Clinton talking about how he never cheated on Hillary.

  66. Le Roi du Nord says:

    jjf:

    Exactly, I heard it every time somebody felt they should have caught more fish or shot more deer, or wanted less mosquitoes or more frogs.

    But it brings up an interesting issue; k doesn’t think it matters that an elected official, (like him, like me) has a responsibility to have good and efficient employees working for a governmental unit.  Or to stay within a budget, or on time, or actually save that municipality some real bucks.  Once again k wants to be the only person with any knowledge, expertise, or virtue (hint: he isn’t).  And again shows his ignorance of how things work out in the real world (hint: he most certainly is).

  67. jjf says:

    As I’m sure you’ve heard, Kevin, the overall discussion about the minimum wage is that too low of a minimum wage has increased the public’s burden in the form of welfare and other support services.

    Surely we can agree we’d like to lower that burden on the public tax dollar?  A higher minimum wage means less welfare.  As I pointed to above, those who receive $15 or less is on the order of 40% of the work force.  Why shouldn’t we all talk about the minimum wage?

    I’ve had businesses in the past with multiple employees.  I’ve made payroll for years.  I’ve had an S-corp for three decades, been self-employed for longer than that.  You think I can’t budget?

    And really, when it comes down to it, you’re insulting everyone out there.  Everyone has a budget.  You think you’re the only one here who can understand that if your costs increase you need to find a way to cover it in order to stay in business?  You’re telling Owen that if it isn’t the one writing the payroll checks, he shouldn’t have an opinion about the minimum wage?  Have you quizzed everyone else here about their personal and business life to determine if they too have enough payroll experience to have a mere opinion on this subject?

    And again, by your logic, you shouldn’t have the right to speak up about any law regarding people who have a womb.  I’m of course assuming your sex and gender, so pardon me if I’m wrong, and please tell me your preferred pronouns.

  68. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    jjf,

    Grea you made payroll.

    Did you pay your employees minimu $15/hour?

    Name the business so I can check with your former employees if you “walked the talk”.

  69. jjf says:

    See, I knew it was all about the doxxing.  Maybe Paul can help.

  70. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    jjf,

    Are you afraid of what the record will reveal?

    Why doesn’t your action, match your advocacy?

  71. jjf says:

    I’ve had a few employees who started at minimum and worked their way up a bit.  Co-op students from the high school.  I’ve had others who were far above minimum.

    What kind of proof would be good enough for you?

    Are you the real Kevin Scheunemann?  Maybe you’re an impostor just trying to make an innocent humble businessman look bad.

  72. Jason says:

    >A higher minimum wage means less welfare.  

    Prove that, and then we can start a meaningful discussion.  Until then, you’re still showing off your potato-head.

  73. jjf says:

    I get it, Jason.  Welfare is a government program and they’re all hard to reverse.  If I’d said someone should try to earn more money so they get off welfare, you’d agree, right?

    And the sprinkle of an insult doesn’t make your position stronger, does it?

  74. Jason says:

    So, nothing?

  75. jjf says:

    Jump right in, Jason.  Tell me where you stand.  Then I can ask you to prove your claims.

    If I’d said someone should try to earn more money so they get off welfare, you’d agree, right?

  76. Jason says:

    >If I’d said someone should try to earn more money so they get off welfare, you’d agree, right?

    You didn’t though.

    I quoted what you said, why are you ignoring that… like a potato-head would do.

     

    Your attempt and mental gymnastics in the past two replies to me prove you are not worthy of listening to and that every post you make is diluted by your dishonesty.   Why should and reader put any weight in any comment you make now?

  77. jjf says:

    I’ll expand my “A higher minimum wage means less welfare” remark if you like.  You realize some welfare programs end if you make “too much” money, right?

    Again, If I’d said someone should try to earn more money so they get off welfare, you’d agree, right?

  78. Jason says:

    I didn’t ask you to expand it.  I asked you to prove the cornerstone point or your entire discussion with Kevin.  Which you still haven’t done.

    Waste of my time thinking you would or could.  Thanks for earning your potato-head badge (I must be able to see the future).

  79. jjf says:

    You’re absolutely right, Jason.  To have a reasonable discussion about this, we’d need better numbers.  I assert that many welfare benefits expire when you reach a certain income level.

    Kevin’s cornerstone is that only employers can have an opinion about the minimum wage.  Are you an employer, Jason?  Can you surrender some proof to Kevin?

  80. Jason says:

    >I assert that many welfare benefits expire when you reach a certain income level.

    That’s a far cry different than what you originally said…

    >A higher minimum wage means less welfare.

    And look, it only took an hour and a half to get you to back peddle that far.   Round and round you circle your wagons, Mr Potato Head.

     

    So tell us jjf, why should anyone take anything you say seriously now, with how you’ve acted in the past 90 minutes?

  81. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    jjf,

    You started people at minimum?

    Gasp!

    Even I don’t do that!

    Ogre.

    How can you advocate something even you do not do yourself?

    Hypocrite.

  82. jjf says:

    It was twenty years ago.  What’s inflation since then?

  83. MjM says:

    Jiffy wonders:  It was twenty years ago.  What’s inflation since then?

    In 1999 the federal minimum wage was $5.15/hr.   In today’s dollars that would be $7.81.

    So, being the oh-so-righteous advocate that you are for a $15/hr minimum today,  you should have been paying $9.88/hr in 1999.

    Why didn’t you?

     

    Jiffy lies: “A higher minimum wage means less welfare.

    That is a demonstrable lie.  Simple 4th-grade math can explain it to you.

     

    Jiffy struts:   As I pointed to above, those who receive $15 or less is on the order of 40% of the work force. 

    A stupid dart-throw number that has no meaning what so ever.

    One could just as easily say “those who receive $20 or less is on the order of 62% of the work force”  or  “those who receive $30 or less is on the order of 82% of the work force”.

    What you failed to “point” to is that $15/hr is nearly twice the Federal minimum wage and according to BLS,  48% earning the federal minimum wage or less are 24yrs-old or less and that 54.5% earning the federal minimum wage or less are part-time workers.

    And obviously, you have no comprehension of scale….

    Example: A small company doing envelope stuffing has gross sales of $1,000,000/yr,  a 10% margin, and 15 full-time employees who average $9/hr.  You, Phony nEvers II,  command that a new minimum wage of $15/hour be enforced throughout the land.

    What is the annual additional cost to the company?

    More importantly, what is financial status of the company one year after being forced to raise pay by 60%?

     

  84. Jason says:

    You’re wasting your time MjM.   jjf already knew he trapped himself and spent 2 hours dancing around with me.  You coming at him with hard facts is going to make him run to the next discussion where he thinks he can bullshit through his narrow minded and banal position.  Mr Potato Head indeed.

  85. jjf says:

    I’ll check my records.  Maybe I paid more than the minimum.  Does it matter?  Because I think there should be a national debate on changing the minimum wage, I’m a hypocrite because I paid someone the min twenty years ago?  Sheesh.  Have you learned anything, changed your mind about anything in the last twenty years?

    As for a higher minimum decreasing the need for welfare, again, do you think it’s a bad idea for people to make more money, and that this is their path to getting off welfare?

    As for the 40% number, it came from the story I linked. 

    In your $1M company, how much welfare is the government handing to your employees making less than $20K a year?

  86. Jason says:

    >In your $1M company, how much welfare is the government handing to your employees making less than $20K a year?

    More wagging your tail.  Dude, you’re such a potato head.  You attempt to completely ignore the questions of his hypothetical and at the same time turn his hypothetical around on him with your senseless questions.

    You complain about being called a potato head, and yet you continue to display your potato head.

    How many original thoughts have you had in the past 20 years that a normal reasoning adult hasn’t scoffed at for being foolish greenfield potato-headed dreams?

  87. jjf says:

    I’m completely aware of the problems any business would face if the minimum wage was increased to $15.  Yes, that pressure could force reorganizations, firings, even force some businesses out.  I’m glad to talk about any of these things.  I’ve raised other points along the way here.  Are you able to talk about all of them?

    How much welfare is being handed out to fifteen workers making $9 an hour?

    The tree of possibilities here isn’t complex.  Answer simple questions.

    If you think the minimum wage should be abolished, say so.  Tell me how you’d get that to pass.  Tell me your arguments to win minds to that position.

    If aren’t willing to abolish it, then tell me your logic for deciding where it should be.  Saying “it’s fine where it is” tells me nothing.

    If you think it’s too high, tell me why.

    If you think it’s too low, tell me why.  Maybe even tell me where it should be.

    Jason, do you think “normal reasoning adults” run around calling people “potato heads”?

  88. Kevin Scheunemann says:

    Jjf,

    If you own a business you have power to set wage where it should be…for your business.

    My average wag is $10-$12/hr.

    Only 14-15 year olds are at $8. Many lack work skills/ethic to even be at that! But the hope is: they can be trained. Higher you go, less opportunity there is for beginners.

    It is not your decision to reach into the wallet of business owner and tell them a marginal employee is worth more, when they are not.

  89. Jason says:

    >Jason, do you think “normal reasoning adults” run around calling people “potato heads”?

    Around you, I’m sure it’s all day every day.

  90. MjM says:

    Jiffy concurs: I’m a hypocrite

    You finally got one right.

    JIffy conflates:  do you think it’s a bad idea for people to make more money, and that this is their path to getting off welfare?

    I think its a bad idea to force someone to pay more for thing than what that thing is worth.

    You do realize that if you force a someone to pay someone double, or a third, or a quarter more than what a job is worth, which in turn forces cut hours and firings, that welfare will increase, don’t you ?

    It’s already happening right before your eyes and you are too potato-headed to recognize it.

     

    Jiff  whimpers:  As for the 40% number, it came from the story I linked.

    Yes, even morons can link to useless information.

     

    Jiffy twists: In your $1M company, how much welfare is the government handing to your employees making less than $20K a year?

    Nothing.  They are all single.  Which puts their annual income $4,500 above the poverty level so they don’t qualify.

    So now you can actually (try to) answer the questions I posed regarding the situation I outlined:

    What is the annual additional cost to the company?

    More importantly, what is financial status of the company one year after being forced to raise pay by 60%?

     

    Jiffy demands:   Answer simple questions.

    Typical leftist:  ANSWER ME! (I don’t hafta answer you)

     

     

     

  91. jjf says:

    I think its a bad idea to force someone to pay more for thing than what that thing is worth.

    Sounds like you’d like to eliminate the minimum wage altogether.  Be brave, say it out loud, we’ll see if anyone else here is brave enough to say the same.

    You do realize that if you force a someone to pay someone double, or a third, or a quarter more than what a job is worth, which in turn forces cut hours and firings, that welfare will increase, don’t you ?

    Depends.  If we’re waving our hands here, and the minimum changes to $15 (or $10 or whatever) then every employer will be paying that new minimum.  It’s not as if your competitor will continue to get to pay the old minimum.   Yes, it’s clear that raising the minimum pushes back on employers.  How can they adjust?

    How do they adjust if the price of a raw material increases?  If Kevin has to pay more for an ice-cream-like substance, will it put more people on welfare?  If we stopped propping up milk prices, would it put Kevin out of business?

    “What a job is worth.”  What does that mean?  You’ve already got the evil government distorting the market for labor by enforcing a minimum wage.  Again, argue to get rid of it, or play along with the debate about where to set it.

    Yes, the math is easy in your example.  Fifteen workers at 2,080 hours a year at an average of $9 an hour, that’s $280,800.  At $15, it’s $468,000.

    You’re hand-waving by assuming they’re all single and don’t qualify and all work full-time.  None of these workers have decided to marry or breed or can’t work full-time?

    I’ll wave my hands and say they get no benefits.  Who pays for their health care?  They just run to the emergency room, right?

    And yes, if minimum wage changes, will they rejigger the qualifications for welfare?

    If we wave our hands and say the minimum wage drops to $1 an hour, and the envelope-stuffing employer can find thirty people who will work for $1 an hour, golly, think of all the money he can make!

  92. MjM says:

    Jiffy Karnacs: Sounds like you’d like to eliminate the minimum wage altogether

    The real minimum wage is already $0.  Though we shan’t expect you to understand why.

     

    Jiffy confused: Depends.  If we’re waving our hands here, and the minimum changes to $15 (or $10 or whatever) then every employer will be paying that new minimum.  It’s not as if your competitor will continue to get to pay the old minimum. 

    Are you AOC’s brother?  Because you certainly posses the same proclivity for proudly uttering gibberish.

     

    Jiffy : “What a job is worth.”  What does that mean?

    Ah.  Now I get it…  you grageeated from the AOC School of Economics, didntja?

    Odd:  All those companies you owned and you have no clue what the meaning of  “job worth”.

    Curious:  Speaking of which, what happened to all those companies you so righteously owned and managed?

     

    Jiffy confused II :  Again, argue to get rid of it,

    And you don’t even realize that YOU are making that exact argument.

    But as for me, I absolutely advocate for the elimination of government jack-boot enforced wage scales.

     

    Jiffy stops at second:   Yes, the math is easy in your example.   At $15, it’s $468,000.

    Yes.  Easy.  Dumbed down just for you.  And now, for the THIRD time:  More importantly, what is financial status of the company one year after being forced to raise pay by 60%?

     

    Jiffy Confused III:  You’re hand-waving by assuming they’re all single and don’t qualify and all work full-time.  None of these workers have decided to marry or breed or can’t work full-time?

    Jason sez Potato,  I sez Potahto.

     

    Jiffy/AOC :  the envelope-stuffing employer can find thirty people who will work for $1 an hour, golly, think of all the money he can make!

    So you believe that a free person who is willing to sell his labor for $1 (or $2, or $5) shouldn’t be able to?   How very commie of you.

     

     

     

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