School Compensation DB
The MJS has provided this handy database to look at all of the salaries, including benefits, for a whole slew of public school districts. Take a gander at your local district.
Owen,
Thanks for putting this out there. My son’s 6th grade teacher in the Falls is making $101,831 a year in salary and compensation for a part time job..
Something has to give..
Posted by OverTaxed In WIS on November 14, 2007 at 2105 hrsWow! Just, wow!…
Posted by on November 14, 2007 at 2331 hrsDear Over Taxed,
Are you sure? I looked at the Menomonee Falls data and the highest salary for a person classified as “teacher” was $65,985 with benefits of $31,888. That adds up to $97,873. Anyone on the Falls list with a salary higher than that also appears to have administrative responsibilities.
Are you saying your son’s 6th grade teacher only works part-time, or are you declaring it part-time because of the school schedule? I know that is a constant bone of contention about teachers’ pay, but the question is whether the salary/benefits is appropriate compensation for the job done.
The above benefits constitute about 48% of that teacher’s salary. I assume it would include the employer’s share of social security (approximately $4600) the employer’s share of the retirement contribution (app. $3300), possibly the employee’s share of the retirement contribution (another $3300, as is sometimes included in the union contract). There may be some group life insurance and maybe some disability insurance as well. The remainder is probably family coverage for health insurance. Employees with single health insurance coverage or no health insurance coverage would have lower benefits.
The teacher in my example appears to be at the top of the salary scale; i.e. an experienced teacher. $66,000 does not seem to be an unreasonably high salary for an experienced professional. 48% may be on the high side for benefits, though with the cost of health insurance skyrocketing, it may not be as comparatively high as it once was. Menomonee Falls is a Milwaukee suburban community. I wonder what the median income (plus benefits if you wish) is for an experienced professional in that community?
I wonder how many people know the cost of their salaries plus benefits? It is a fair number to look at, but I don’t know anyone who talks about their compensation in those terms. The level of compensation and benefits for public employees is a legitimate topic for debate. So is the way compensation is determined. It is not unfair (though I question the necessity) for the Journal Sentinel to post school district employee’s salaries. But then it falls to the user to fairly examine them and to use apples to apples comparisons.
“The laborer is worthy of [her] hire.” What do you think is a fair compensation for your son’s 6th grade teacher, in cash and benefits? Is she a good teacher? Setting aside all other issues for the moment, are you getting your money’s worth for her services? Take your school property tax bill and divide it by 180. Is your son’s education worth that amount per day?
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 0721 hrsWhat do you think is a fair compensation for your son’s 6th grade teacher, in cash and benefits? Is she a good teacher?
If we only determined teacher compensation in that fashion. I was struck by how many teachers make the exact same thing. How many of them are good? How many of them are bad? Does it make any difference when it comes to compensating them?
Posted by Owen on November 15, 2007 at 0741 hrsOwen,
They make the same thing because of the union salary structure. Your years of experience and education place you at a point on a grid and that is your compensation. Since there are no teachers making more than the teacher in my example, I assume that is the top of the grid.
Before I rush off (I’m late) I have to launch a pre-emptive strike on my previous post, however.
Obviously, property taxes are not the only payment one makes for public education. A very large portion of general revenues (income and sales tax) is distributed to school districts as state aid.
Menomonee Falls is a low-state-aid district, so the property tax is relatively indicative of the actual cost of public education in the district. However MF taxpayers also pay income and sales taxes which are used to pay general state aids to poorer school districts.
So my example of dividing the property tax by 180 days will be “relatively” indicative of a MF taxpayer’s local tax to support local education, but ignores that taxpayer’s support of statewide education. I don’t have time to look up numbers and percents.
However, my question is still trying to get to the level of the individual teacher--who has no more individual influence in the overall funding system than anyone else.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 0802 hrsThey make the same thing because of the union salary structure. Your years of experience and education place you at a point on a grid and that is your compensation.
I know. That’s exactly the compensation structure I was lamenting. For Overtaxed, it doesn’t matter if his kid’s teacher is good when it comes to his/her compensation. He/she will make the same no matter how good or crappy he/she is.
To answer your question, I think that teachers should be paid based on their performance, but that’s not the way we do it.
Posted by Owen on November 15, 2007 at 0814 hrsOk purrfect mamma nice bloviating… So are you a teacher or a union thug..
In the real world someone making the kind of money teachers and administrators make is to work full time.
What does full time mean. When I asked the school board if they had exact documentation of what hours the teachers actually work, they said they didnt have any..
We are among the highest cost per pupil, with close to the worst test scores in the area.
How much are they worth? Not much. Give me the $15,000 and I will put my kid in a private school where the test scores
blow away the public schools....Im just glad I dont live in Milwaukee county..
So what is the main problem with Wisconsin schools…
In a word WEAC…
Posted by OverTaxed In WIS on November 15, 2007 at 0916 hrsAnd again...WOW. I had to look at my alma mater West Bend HS. You had to get to page 31 before you found a base salary below 50,000.(That is 310 people making 83k or more) My favorite was a Linda Juech. She was labeled as part time substitute, making a sad 98,102 a year. I mean, couldn’t they have put her over 100k too? So close…
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1054 hrsAll I know is that I’m still making more money than my ex-wife...thanks for the opportunity to look that up so that I can smile today.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1233 hrsdoes not seem to be unreasonably high salary for an experienced professional
They make the same thing because of the union salary structure. Your years of experience and education place you at a point on a grid and that is your compensation.
Was anybody else struck by the dichotomy of these statements...made by the same person? I guess in my world, “professional” has a little different meaning...such as risk and reward.
Also, would this be too soon to make the comment that it’s no wonder a few hundred dollars in tax increase wouldn’t be a big deal to many of the referendum supporters (i.e., District staff).
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1409 hrsI guess in my world, “professional” has a little different meaning...such as risk and reward.
What does risk/reward have to do with professional or its ism?
So wiaggie would you prefer “amateur” teachers?
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1428 hrsSomeone asked how many of us know the costs of our benefits. I do. I also know how much of the firms rent, copier supplied, the salaries of support staff etc are allocated to me. Every year I sit in a room and I am presented with my overhead number with is an allocation of all the above plus my salarey. That number is comparied to the amount of revenue I generated for the firm. I am then told whether or not I (as an individual) was profitible for the last year. That is how professionals are evaluated as oppsed to unionized labor who generally look at the CPI or inflation multiplied by a setformula and start arguing that they need more money.
I would love to have a system where teachers are treated (and act) like professionals. Where their performance is evaluated based on their individual skills. When that happens they can call themselve professionals. Until that day they aren’t Unionized professional is an oxymoron.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1522 hrsPir wrote:
“So wiaggie would you prefer “amateur” teachers?”
You mean like the ones they use at private schools, that have the much higher test scores?
Yes we would like these “amateur teachers”.
Posted by OverTaxed In WIS on November 15, 2007 at 1626 hrsThere is something wrong with your data base. David Shapley has not worked at the district for over a year and Linda Juech is retired. By the way she was a phenomenal teacher and great human being.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1630 hrsUnionized professional is an oxymoron
So truck drivers, heavy equipment operators, and law enforcement officers (and a few million other jobs that require specialized training and experience and are represented by a union) aren’t professionals?
So who qualifies as professional, attorneys and hookers?
And OverTaxed the comparison between professional and amateur had to do with a risk/reward comment. I consider teaching a profession in either a public or private setting.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1646 hrsThere is something wrong with your data base.
According to the MJS, the information was provided by the DPI. I’m sure that there’s a lag time in reporting and publishing.
Posted by Owen on November 15, 2007 at 1652 hrsKris,
The data is for the 2006-2007 school year. It does not include this year (2007-2008). I know I was confused at first too seeing David Shapley’s name.
Posted by Rich2 on November 15, 2007 at 1655 hrsWith stupid comments like who are the professionals attorneys and hookers? You reveal a little of who you are.
Like I said in the previous postings the main problem for Wisconsin is WEAC.
Have a look at South Carolina schools, that have higher test scores and spend roughly 1/2 of what we do for each student.
Its not about the kids its about the money and benifits.
One other question. Name me on other professional person in any profession, that gets health care for life?
Or who can retire in one district, and start collecting the pension, and then take a position in another district and start building another pension?
Its not about the kids its about the money and benifits.
Posted by OverTaxed In WIS on November 15, 2007 at 1707 hrsName me on other professional person in any profession, that gets health care for life?
Soldiering.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1714 hrsAgain with answers like this you show more of yourself.
I have several friends in Iraq right, now that are kicking the crap out al qaeda.
Dont compare a job that is so lax to those serving our country.
What a joke.
Posted by OverTaxed In WIS on November 15, 2007 at 1729 hrsYou asked a simple question.
I gave you a simple answer.
And how would I know that?
Don’t throw the flag in my face dimwit, I served, have you?
What your revealing is a serious lack of reading comprehension skills.
I think for you, OverTaxed, could be applied on a variety of levels.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1741 hrsTypical libral crap. And yes I have served in combat?
You?
Comparing a teacher to anyone in the Arm Forces is a joke.
And I guess, if I have problems with reeding or comperhension it should be blammed on my Wisconsin Edukatin
Back on topic please
Posted by OverTaxed In WIS on November 15, 2007 at 1756 hrsI would agree that your teachers were extremely overpaid given the ROI.
And yes.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1816 hrsOvertaxed,
what scores are you talking about? If you mean the only truly nationalized test, the ACT, you wuld be incorrect.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1837 hrsKris,
I notice from your email address you are from the West Bend School district.
I hope your not using your school computer to blog here, that would be wasting our tax dollars. Oh yah you guys dont care, its not your money....
The test scores Im referring to are the test both my sons just finish taking today. And the teachers were so overworked from sitting there doing nothing, that they had to take the rest of the day off.
Our scores have decreased every year for the last 5 consecutive years. Yet the amount we spend keeps going up.
So what is the answer.
The pro’s cant get the kids to learn…
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1845 hrsWhat does risk/reward have to do with professional or its ism? My point was that in the traditional professions (like medicine, law and architecture), a person assumes a high responsibility to society and is held to a very high standard. E&O;insurance is required to cover minor mistakes, and if a serious error is made, the person could lose the ability to ever practice again.
In contrast, if children are found to be reading below grade level, their teachers are not only not held responsible, but new positions are created for other teachers...look at all the “reading recovery specialists” on the payroll. Remember when there was one teacher assigned to a classroom?
So truck drivers, heavy equipment operators, and law enforcement officers (and a few million other jobs that require specialized training and experience and are represented by a union) aren’t professionals? In my opinion, no - they are simply specialized, or skilled occupations, but not professions. The word has been dumbed-down over the years - it used to reference only fields that had extensive study (more than 4-year degree) and accreditation requirements before being allowed to practice. The only reason many teachers pursue post-graduate degrees today is because that is the quickest path to the highest salary - in Waukesha Schools a teacher hit that ceiling in three years by piling up degrees and other “continuing education”.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1850 hrsOwen, Wiaggie and Joe:
I agree with much of what you have to say. I have often wondered why “professionals” wish to be paid like widget-makers (with no offense intended to widget-makers).
However, I would argue that being trained in a profession and working in that profession in a professional manner is what makes a person a professional, regardless of the appropriateness of the compensation system.
I think there are a number of concerns—valid and otherwise--with “performance-based pay systems” for teachers, but it is difficult for me to understand why a professional (especially one that assigns grades to students for their performance) shouldn’t be willing to be judged and payed based on the quality of their work. And while I am a long-time public employee (though not a teacher) and reap and enjoy the benefits of that, I see a negative effect on those with less seniority who cannot be financially rewarded no matter how great a job they do.
But, whether you have a system based on seniority or whether you have a system based on merit, if you are a suburban district with high property values (translation: resources) with which to support your public education system, and you are competing with other suburban school districts for the best teachers, my guess is you will continue to pay above-average salaries to your teachers. It’s still less expensive than paying lower salaries to the public school teachers and then having to pay private school tuition on top of that.
Owen, I believe you serve on the board of a private school. How do you determine the pay of individual teachers?
By the way, The Hechinger Institute (whoever they are) has published a primer for reporters titled “From Contracts to Classrooms; Covering Teachers’ Unions.” I think it is a mostly-balanced resource for understanding teacher (and probably some other public employee) contracts. http://cms.ceoi.summitqwest.com/assets/hechinger/pdfs/H echinger_Union_Primer.pdf.
Overtaxed:
I plead guilty to bloviating (bloviate: To discourse at length in a pompous or boastful manner). My discourse is lengthy and I can see where one might find it pompous. I don’t think I was boastful, though.
It is probably obvious from my comments in this thread and others that I am a public employee. I also belong to a union.
Since private schools do not have to administer state tests or any tests at all, and since they are not required to publicly disclose their test scores and most don’t, there is no objective evidence that private school students in general perform better than, worse than or the same as, public school students in general.
But I think you are the one guilty of thuggery.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1908 hrsWhere do you get the idea that private schools dont have to issue tests? Yes they do.
How am I guilty of thuggery?
Its funny that if you point out to a public employee that they are overpaid and underworked they think its thuggery.
The change I proposed to our local school district was to make the teachers, administrators ect.. punch a time clock and see exactly how many hours they put in. No takers…
At a recent meeting, someone in the crowd made the comment that the teachers work part time. A teacher stood up and said that they put in all kinds of extra hours.
But when I said I would be happy to follow they around and document exactly how many hours they work, on their conference days, i was told to f-off. Right there in the meeting. Nice.... I went to our local school and watched and the teachers all left the grounds about 45 minutes afer the kids. When I went to the board with the pictures showing time stamps, they made up some excuse about the teachers were all going to meet somewhere. Yah right, found 4 or 5 at starbucks right down the street. Nice try..
Public employees have a gravy train, and if you point it out to them your accused of being a thug. Well so be it..
Bring it on
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 1920 hrsPrivate schools in Wisconsin are not required to issue tests. Probably most do, but there is no requirement that they do so and there is nothing that specifies which tests they must offer. They are not required to report their test scores publicly and most don’t, so at least in Wisconsin it is not possible to make statistically-valid score-based comparisons between public and private school students.
Individual private schools may provide test information to parents or others if they wish, and that may enable one to draw some comparisons concerning a specific private school. But nothing exists that will prove one way or the other whether private school students in Wisconsin score better on standardized tests than public school students.
Private schools are required to meet health and safety requirements. They have to follow employment laws. They are required to report their enrollment to the state. However, these are the only statutory educational requirements for private schools:
Section 118.165 PRIVATE SCHOOLS.
(1) An institution is a private school if its educational program meets all of the following criteria:
(a) The primary purpose of the program is to provide private or religious-based education.
(b) The program is privately controlled.
(c) The program provides at least 875 hours of instruction each school year.
(d) The program provides a sequentially progressive curriculum of fundamental instruction in reading, language arts, mathematics, social studies, science and health. This subsection does not require the program to include in its curriculum any concept, topic or practice in conflict with the program’s religious doctrines or to exclude from its curriculum any concept, topic or practice consistent with the program’s religious doctrines.
(e) The program is not operated or instituted for the purpose of avoiding or circumventing the compulsory school attendance requirement under s. 118.15(1)(a).
(f) The pupils in the institution’s educational program, in the ordinary course of events, return annually to the home of their parents or guardians for not less than 2 months of summer vacation, or the institution is licensed as a child welfare agency under s. 48.60(1).(2) An institution may request the state superintendent to approve the institution’s educational program as a private school. The state superintendent shall base his or her approval solely on the criteria under sub.(1).
This is not a criticism of private schools. It is a simple statement of fact: there are no data--at least in Wisconsin--to support or refute a claim that private school students perform better on standardized tests than public school students.
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 2011 hrsWho would have thought that a simple post linking to a database would have generated so much commentary?
Just to weigh in on the whole “profession” debate. Personally, I consider a professional someone who has studied to obtain a high level of skill in a particular field and who leverages those skills in the free market. Some professions are designated as such by tradition, and some by their characterization. In general, if you are being paid based on anything other than the relative value that your skills bring to an organization, then I would not characterize you as a professional… not that there’s anything wrong with that. Of course, I accept that others’ definitions may vary, but I don’t get too worked up over being called a “professional” verses a “tradesman” or “laborer.” All of them are honorable ways of earning a living.
Owen, I believe you serve on the board of a private school. How do you determine the pay of individual teachers?
Our school is a parochial school. As such, the teachers’ compensation is set by the synod. The purpose is to prevent rich churches from attracting the best teachers because all children deserve an equal opportunity at a Christian education. It is easier for us to fire a teacher. We also have some other tools in our bag of tricks to motivate teachers that public schools are forbidden to use. That being said, I disagree with the way we do compensation and would prefer it to be a merit-based system.
OT,
The problem with how much teachers work is how they are compensated. Some teachers do work a lot of hours and bust their buts. Some are lazy bums who phone it in 70% of the time. They get paid the same. Compensation is supposed to be used to incent an employee to do what you want them to do. A rigid compensation plan based on arbitrary factors like years of service and unneeded degrees defeats the purpose of a compensation plan.
Posted by Owen on November 15, 2007 at 2016 hrsPM,
You are correct that private schools aren’t required to issue state tests. Most do and give the results to the parents. Ours does.
That being said, most private school parents look at things like how many kids get into colleges, ACT/SAT scores, and other metrics.
Posted by Owen on November 15, 2007 at 2020 hrsOwen,
Do the private schools that are part of school choice or the voucher program have to report test scores to the state?
Does anyone know?
Thanks
Posted by on November 15, 2007 at 2048 hrsHonestly, I’m not sure. They didn’t used to have to, but I have a thought rambling through my mind that they agreed to do so in some limited fashion in the last budget. I’ll try to find out.
Posted by Owen on November 15, 2007 at 2055 hrsIn the first five years of school choice, all the private schools getting school choice $ had to report their test scores to the state. As provided for under the law, these scores were analyzed and it was found that there was no difference in scores between MPS students and the school choice students. So, then Gov Thompson & the Republican controlled Legislature removed the test score reporting component from the law funding school choice.
Posted by on November 16, 2007 at 1835 hrs[removed by administrator]
Posted by on November 16, 2007 at 1850 hrsI guess it irks a lot of people that teachers make a relativly large salary, and only teach nine months out of the year. It wouldn’t bother me so much if they had to enhance their teaching skills during the summer instead of having so many inservice days during the school year. Many have summer jobs, the income you see on the sight isn’t a true reflection of what their yearly income is. Some recieve grants for study that has nothing to do with what the teach. However it pays for the vacation or time off. Face it jealousey plas a part but the in your face and blaitant unaccountability does too. That is where the friction that sooner or later, as it has with other unions. Will be the demise of the educatioal system as we know it. And the legislature is right behind it. People are getting fed up.
Posted by on November 16, 2007 at 2141 hrsWOW,
Observer wrote:
“Kids like Eric Harris and Dylen Klebold members of the Young Republicans club at Columbine. They knew how to deal with the overpaid teacher union thugs. One shot at a time! Too bad the liberls rip them; they were heros and shoud be remembred that way.”
You’ve got to be kidding, right?
Your Advocating shooting teachers?
Those kids were not hero’s they were deranged idiots.
I think maybe you want the DailyKos.com.
WOW
Posted by on November 16, 2007 at 2325 hrsI am NOT advcting shootng teachrs. I agree with Mark belling when he said that theese kids were pushed into doing this by the stupid union teachrs at Colmbine. belling said that to bad only one teachr got it and lots of kids. shuld have been the other way. belling hates teachrs I like belling
Posted by on November 17, 2007 at 0831 hrsWhat the “H” is this about? Sorry about the CAPS, I cut & pasted from WBKV Radio (West Bend) 11/30/07 newscast.
Posted by on November 30, 2007 at 1732 hrsWEST BEND POLICE HAVE ARRESTED A 46-YEAR OLD OAK CREEK HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER FOR ALLEGEDLY POSTING A THREATENING MESSAGE ON A LOCAL WEBSITE BLOG. IN THE (NOVEMBER 16TH) POST, THE MAN, WHO HAS NOT YET BEEN NAMED BUT LIVES IN CUDAHY, CRITICIZES WEST BEND TEACHERS SALARIES & WORK HABITS, TAKES PARTIAL CREDIT FOR DEFEATING THE REFERENDUM, AND IMPLORES THE READERS OF THE ENTRY TO SUPPORT THE KIDS WHO HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF...QUOTE: “LAZY, NO GOOD TEACHERS AND ARE FIGHTING BACK. KIDS LIKE ERIC HARRIS AND DYLAN KLEBOLD, MEMBERS OF THE YOUNG REPUBLICANS CLUB AT COLUMBINE. THEY KNEW HOW TO DEAL WITH THE OVERPAID TEACHER UNION THUGS. ONE SHOT AT A TIME!” (END QUOTE.) THE ENTRY GOES ON TO SAY: “THEY WERE HEROS(sp.) AND SHOULD BE REMEMBERED THAT WAY.” POLICE SAY THE SUSPECT ADMITTED POSTING THE MESSAGE. THEY ARRESTED HIM AND EXECUTED A SEARCH WARRANT AT HIS HOME. HE WAS BROUGHT TO THE WASHINGTON COUNTY JAIL ON PRELIMINARY CHARGES OF UNLAWFUL USE OF COMPUTERIZED COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS AND DISORDERLY CONDUCT. THE D-A’s OFFICE IS REVIEWING THE CASE.
We live in a post Columbine world. Threats are taken very seriously. I don’t know who reported this, but they were weel within their rights to do so. Words have power and they affect everyone differently.
Posted by on November 30, 2007 at 1855 hrsI guess when I read the original post (which has since been removed), I just figured it was someone being a “troll” & dismissed it as such - it sounded similar to a lot of AOL comments that are posted to their news stories. I am surprised it was a teacher - I wonder how his peers feel about Columbine being invoked in this fashion? And I guess whoever made the complaint is a “moot” issue - I just hope that any teachers out there know that most people who make comments here do have a certain respect for professional teachers, even if there is disagreement about pay, benefits, working conditions, unionization, etc. I have two neighbors who are retired educators, and a married couple as neighbors who are both teachers - good neighbors to have!
Hope this wasn’t too stressful for Owen and his crew!
Posted by on November 30, 2007 at 1918 hrsI’m writing the explanation in a new post. Stay tuned.
Posted by Owen on November 30, 2007 at 1926 hrsI am just making a comment about salaries. I have worked as a teacher and worked with many teachers. I am sick of hearing how hard they work for the pay they get. Most people work about 240 days a year. Teachers work no more than 195 days a year. They are paid for every little thing they do outside of their class room. Most have a least 1 hour a day for prep work, and most schools have no more than 7 class periods. They have the best insurance, and retirement. In fact most don’t pay for any part of their health insurance, and some have no deductible or co-pay. I have listened to them complain about having to buy paper, pens, supplies for their classes. Well i have to buy paper, pens, supplies, such as tools, books, etc for my job. If teachers got paid 15-30 dollars an hour and had to pay for some of their insurance, then just maybe they could understand the common folk. Maybe then they would see why we are tired of voting for a new bond issue for whatever they think they need now.
Posted by on December 01, 2007 at 2010 hrsJust like everyone else posting here, I am fully qualified to raise a stink about teacher pay because I was a student in the public school system for 12 years. As an adult I look back at how many absolutely worthless teachers I had in high school and college. I have a right to be critical because these people were to be working for me! The great teachers I had made a difference in my life and I can attribute my success to their inspiration and what they taught me. But, there were soooooo many worhless teachers I had that were just going through the motions and performing at the union required levels of expectation that I could puke! Unions destroyed manufacturing and industry in this nation and it will never come back. Union mediocrity is killing education in this country as well. We spend the most in the world and we rank in the middle for results. Fortunately for school teachers, mediocrity is all that is ever required–after all they can never be fired. We are all qualified to criticize their salaries and performance since we went through their system of education. Wake up school teachers and adminstrators. Your product sucks. If MPS were a business it would have been shut down decades ago. The system is sick, but it won’t change until their is absolute revolt by the tax payers, just as there was when the buying public revolted against Detroit automakers and started buying superior foreign cars. Finally the big three woke up and decided they had to do a better job or they would die. It took the threat of total destruction for the union to make some changes and improve. Are the public school teachers ready to realize this too?
Posted by on December 01, 2007 at 2344 hrsWell said Pat C. Is there a modern day US union that is a benefit to society? Besides choking the back end of education, I see the lovely sports unions, the unions that control Gov’t contracts. If unions were abolished what would happen? Anything bad...compared to the good?
Posted by on December 03, 2007 at 0822 hrsI don’t believe you can blame the unions in general. Greed and stupidity have a great deal to do with problems created by membership today. Educated well beyond common sense is one of my favorite expressions. Also the fact that quality leadership refuses to be a part of the endless bickering, backbiting and junior politics on school boards and local government. Just take a look at how the Mayor of West Bend came about, or the size of the county board. It’s not a matter of representation, it’s a matter of control. New people with fresh ideas don’t stand a chance. Even if they do manage to get on either of those boards, the mini mafia over rules anything to do with change unless it’s their idea.
Posted by on December 03, 2007 at 0859 hrsWhy do you all seem to have the same misguided idea that standardized test scores are any actual indication of what your children are learning? Standardized tests promote short term memorization and a very shallow look at individual topics, due to the wide range of topics every year rather than specific foci or even slightly narrowed topic range, with deeper exploration. When you look at it, standardized tests are what lead to the lack of interest in learning in many students, because it becomes a fast-paced chore where each individual concept doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Once children start becoming lost because of these testing guidelines, they stay lost. This diminishes interest in higher education and more complex studies, especially within mathematics and science. Honestly, if your children aren’t getting high standardized test scores, it does not mean they aren’t learning or that their teachers aren’t doing a good job. Perhaps, even, the teachers whose students do badly on these tests are sometimes doing a better job than teachers whose students do well. Students need to learn how to LEARN, not learn how to TEST, because testing is ridiculously unimportant within the real world, but we must always learn and adapt with our surroundings to succeed, and this is related to learning, not testing.
Posted by on December 05, 2007 at 0326 hrs"Why do you all seem to have the same misguided idea that standardized test scores are any actual indication of what your children are learning? “ because they are IDIOTS like the SNITCH that runs this blog. MAY THEY BURN IN HELL !
Posted by on December 06, 2007 at 0701 hrsok.. i have read some of the posts in here, and it seems that all are against teacher’s salary.. personally, I think this is absured.. we complain about teachers making money.. we pour crazy $$ into our politician’s pocket, and some don’t even get hired..use our donations to run, and don’t even get elected..half of us don’t even agree with the president, and who knows how much he makes..some of them wonder aimlessy in the political realm for decades, seemingly just making money.. furthermore, we then dump MAD cash into our sport’s players.. and although we have our peyton mannings and derek jeters good guys, we also have our barry bonds, and michael vicks.. might i add that we didn’t mind paying him almost 1 million dollars PER GAME!! that’s every sunday folks, he goes out and makes roughly a million dollars.. hmm.. last year, the median salary on the LOWEST paid team was $430,445 per year..and these are players that ride the bench.. you know, sit there and watch the game most of the time, for half a mil a year!! Now, we complain about our teachers.. in my area, teachers do not make 30 - 50 thousand a year.. yes, they work 195 days per year.. summers off, etc.. but they have OUR kids for at least 5-6 hours a day, which sadly, is more time than some parents spend with thier kids.. sadly, 5-6 hours a day with some of these kids is pure torture.. and we put a tremendous responsibility into our teacher’s hands.. - take my child, teach him/her what they need to get into college.. so they can get good jobs and become model citizens.. now, i love sports.. but i think my teacher has a far greater responsibility than say, alex rodriguez.. and he will make more money in one year than a teacher may possibly make thier whole career..I just want to say that to the misinformed person that said that the union caused the shooting at columbine.. get real, and think about it.. does anyone have justification for going in and shooting innocent kids?.. and you talk of professionals??.. are you at the top of your industry.. will you take less if you are not better than, say, your co-worker? (i think not).. and a bit of info about our soldiers..as a former soldier, i will tell you not all are as patriotic as we think.. some of them could give a rat’s azz about any of us.. some just want to make money.. and some feel that the service is a way to kill people and not go to jail, like they would in thier hood.. and the service was just an avenue to stay out of jail.. god bless them all, for they are over there and we aren’t.. anyway, I could go on and on.. but I won’t.. i said enough already.. i welcome your comments.. i will check back daily, i love a good argument!!..
Posted by on December 06, 2007 at 0720 hrsone more thing.. my whole point is that teachers are a very high priority.. pay them.. and pay them well.. maybe more would excel, if we paid them more.. ever notice that every great person can recall a teacher that influenced thier lives in a positive way?.. think about it.. and let me know what you think..
Posted by on December 06, 2007 at 0725 hrsAll right Daryle, I will bite. As much as I hate how much sports stars are paid there are two major things you ignore in your comparison.
1) We voluntarily pay them as a private enterprise with supply and demand working to a significant degree.
2) Human nature takes the path of least resistance and drive slows with success. Jason Kidd is privately on strike against his team right now because he has a guaranteed max. salary so he is...dissatisfied? When a large percentage of sports stars hit the big bucks, their career takes a downturn. These are highly driven men who have built up their bodies and natural skills to a hardly believable degree, yet even these most driven men stop striving for better when they think they can’t get more.In contrast teacher salaries are paid by the public. No matter how much we pay we cannot demand anything for our supply because of their union and tenure. To pay teachers more guarantees only one thing, that more people who believe in money over learning will try to become teachers. Any of those teachers we remember as life changers are the ones that would still be there with a quarter less pay or benefits, so long as it was enough to have a decent life.
Giving teachers the power/responsibility to put culpability back on parents would be the greatest single aid to education today. Unfortunately, (and I am not saying this is a conscious conspiracy so mush as the direction the out of control educrat machine has taken) it is the desire of public education to take on as many aspects of child rearing as possible and it is the general wish of the public to give up those responsibilities.
In my school days we did not sudy for those standardized tests for one second. They were a meter of learning. If kids today spend any time studying specifically for those tests, like any poll where the subjects are coached with their answers, the results are hopelessly skewed and invalidated...duh!
Posted by on December 06, 2007 at 0847 hrshey Tuerqas.. thanks for the info.. i really did not consider that.. but it does add to my point.. we willingly pay these guys, and sometimes it is based on past performances.. with some big sports names, it is questionable wether they are past thier good years, but still we pay them huge $$ because of thier name. I understand about teachers paid by the public.. but are you saying that we keep thier salaries down to keep out the money chasers?.. people chase $$ in all walks of life.. i have seen soldiers do it.. the army gives them clothing, lodging, and pay.. why get out?.. or move off post, and make a big family so they can get more..sometimes, people who get public assistance get more by having more children.. that is not a stereotype, nor is it the norm, but it happens..that is just my flawed opinion.. we can’t stop people from doing things just for the money.. no matter how honorable it seems.. this discussion was because people think teachers make too much.. but i say that they have a tremendous responsibility, give them all that, and more.. I am a single parent, and god knows i do all i can to ensure my kids get a good education.. I cannot do it alone.. and i just pray that they get good teachers.. and when they do, i can actually see them learning.. so, i am one for having the teachers get paid.. no matter who pays them..
Posted by on December 06, 2007 at 0926 hrsI am not saying keeping salaries down will keep out money chasers per se, I was more opining that more guaranteed money/benefits won’t encourage anyone already in the biz to do better, but it will attract people more interested in money than teaching and many good teachers may never teach because a money chaser took his spot. Face it, someone going in to teaching because of benefits and job security will be there for a very long time. I have first hand experience on that. Some measure of supply and demand or true merit pay is a way to improve teaching. Joe loser teacher making more money than shiny genius teacher because he has been working longer is a morale downer for everyone...teachers, taxpayers...everyone!
Posted by on December 06, 2007 at 1124 hrs
I believe most discerning people whether liberal or conservative, don’t think that the profession as a whole is wildly overpaid for the job they are SUPPOSED to be doing, it is the fact that everyone who looks can point a large block of teachers/administrators who, well… suck, but they are paid as much or much more than very good teachers. It is the large contingent of deadwood turning out very poor product and effort levels that gives the profession as a whole the overpaid reputation. If the US were still leading the way in education, invention, innovation, etc. this would not be a topic. Couple that with the health industry problems that so many face and it adds to the complacency image teachers have gained or ‘merited’.Here’s Post 35 that good citizen Owen deleted off this thread after voluntarily turning over the IP of the poster. Now that it has been determined that this post was protected 1st amendment speech, I thought it only appropriate to repost it for the record, as follows:
Looking at those teacher salary numbers in West Bend made me sick. $60,000 for a part time job were you ‘work’ maybe 5 hours per day and sit in the teachers lounge and smoke the rest of the time. Thanks God we won on the referendum. But whining here doesn’t stop the problem. We’ve got to get in back of the kids who have had enough of lazy, no good teachers and are fighting back. Kids like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold members of the Young Republicans club at Columbine. They knew how to deal with the overpaid teacher union thugs. One shot at a time! Too bad the liberals rip them; they were heroes and should be remembered that way.
Posted by on December 06, 2007 at 1248 hrswell, first off, i wonder if perry is posting that as a matter of opinion, or just because they can.. secondly, i wonder if said person would post that if their loved one was a victum of columbine. Going on, and on.. anyone who would post that as a matter of opinion is obviously morally handicapped, and doesn’t give much thought as to who might be offended.
ok, on to intelligent thought.. Tuergas for your input.. you are correct.. but to shine the proverbial light bulb above your head, any profession that you look at is going to have some joe loser worker making more money than shiney genius worker simply because of time in.. work for the state.. any state.. it’s our society.. as a single dad, i never stop working.. a full time job, a home biz, and all my kid’s functions..and it makes me sick when my youth intervention organization draws 150 kids and 8 parents, to include maybe 1 or 2 dads.. for a typical function.. even there, if someone can do it while others sit on thier azz and do as little as possible, so be it.. supply and demand is there for our teachers.. as long as there are schools.. hopefully, we find some way of weeding out the joe loosers.. (no offense to anyone named joe!).. and pay the good ones very well, so there is motivation to do well.. in my area, no one wants to be a teacher cuz they don’t pay enough.. and most of the teachers have a summer job.. so, what can we say.. but i know the answer is not to shoot them, as mr. insensitve suggests..
well, you have a happy holiday.. get back to me.. i can debate this all day..
Posted by on December 06, 2007 at 1826 hrsFor the record, the person who posted that is a high school teacher. It was posted as an extremely sarcastic response to the discussion. It was an overreaction, not a statement in truth. He doesn’t believe that the shooters were right, to any extent. Here’s an article about it.
Posted by on December 07, 2007 at 0113 hrsOf course, there are Rick losers (there, I used my own name this time so Joes can have a break) in every profession. However, my primary point and it sounds like you agree with me, is that in a profession where there is no competition or merit bonuses shiny boy genius will turn in to Rick loser because there is no incentive to do more than that old guy who just keeps hanging in there at $100,000 plus in pay and benefits. In the real world shiny boy genius replaces Joe and Rick loser because the company doesn’t need the dead weight. Then whoops Joe and Rick loser get off their butts and make sure they do a good enough job to not be replaced. Why are Government jobs and contracts for public works to unions protected at all? Why can’t someone who sucks be fired OR AT LEAST not be given a raise?
The West Bend teacher’s salaries stick out to me like a nuclear mushroom cloud because everyone knows that while some of the teachers may deserve that rate, they all got to the same rate whether went to work or mailed it in.
Posted by on December 07, 2007 at 0835 hrswell, first off, i wonder if perry is posting that as a matter of opinion, or just because they can.. secondly, i wonder if said person would post that if their loved one was a victum of columbine. Going on, and on.. anyone who would post that as a matter of opinion is obviously morally handicapped, and doesn’t give much thought as to who might be offended.
Posted by linkbait on February 05, 2008 at 1448 hrs
Ol' Army
