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Friday, April 11, 2008

Party In the Falls

Rumors are that members of the teachers union plan to picket the Menomonee Falls School Board meeting on Monday night (4/14/08). The school board has actually been standing firm on salary and benefit increases that the union is demanding. It would behoove some of the citizens in that district to show up at the meeting and support their school board.

(88) Comments

Posted by Owen at 0722 hrs

Politics + Politics - Wisconsin
Tags: wisconsin, politics

I (jokingly) dare someone to Rickroll their protest.

“Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiii just wanna tell you how I’m feeeeeling, Gotta make you understaaand. Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down…”
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1117 hrs

Wendy,

I must be either too young or too old.

What is RickRoll?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1137 hrs

Doesn’t sound like much of a party to me. Who/what are the teachers going to hold hostage this year to again show us taxpayers that it really is just “all for the children” and not for their pocketbooks?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1223 hrs

Rick Rolld:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT7xQJrqUQ8&eurl;=

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI-1Q1_95bM
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1246 hrs

Misterfalls,

From what I can gather there are going to be upwards of 50 teachers out from picketing..

Should be fun..

Dont forget to wear your “Lets Break the Union” Tshirt…

Or the “Hey $15,983 per kid, gets you test scores like we lived in Milwaukee County”

Any other suggestions..
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1307 hrs

We just got nailed with a huge tax increase last year (thanx to the ignorant MF voters). Now they want more?

p.s. I live in Menomonee Falls
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1308 hrs

OverTaxed, You raised the main issue. Our test scores stink. We rank 17 out 18th of all school districts in Waukesha County with only Waukesha school district performing worse than us.

And yes, that was a 6.6% tax levy increase. And.. let’s not forget the declining enrollment of 240 some students.

Oh wait, I almost forgot, we also added 4k in local daycare centers last year.

The taxpayers keep giving and giving and what do we get in return? Bottom of the barrel performance, no accountibility and more taxes.

What has the union given?

Then again, they do this because the electorate in the Falls continues to elect people to the board who will just follow the lead of the administration. The one candidate in the last election that was willing to take a stand and demand better got the fewest votes.

Go figure.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1317 hrs

The school board has actually been standing firm on salary and benefit increases that the union is demanding.

I’d like to see the Union come up with a list of 10 private companies of similar employee size that have increased benefits in the past 5 years. Hell, come up with 5.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1407 hrs

KT,

I agree with you the one candidate that was willing to take a stand got trounced.

Gina the WEAC cheerleader got the most votes, because the union made sure their people got out the vote.

The other guy who got voted in was also voted in by the union, because they know he would go lock step with the union.

Will you be there Monday Night. Should I print a tee-shirt for you?

Anyone else?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1500 hrs

I like the idea of Rick Rolling them!

The union should be very happy. They just got two candidates elected to the board. One of them works for an activist firm that goes around the state trying to start grassroots campaigns to get the state government to overturn the QEO. The other one wants to float a referendum to fund increased operational costs over and above the QEO.

The candidate who actually was conservative was trounced.

I don’t see the school board holding out too long on salaries and benefits, I see them caving pretty quickly, especially considering the increase taxes mantra of the new blood on the board.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1530 hrs

Ok,

I have just downloaded rickroll.mp3. So now we burn it to a CD, and then bring a boombox to the party, with our own signs, and then just blare the music?

Do I have this right Wendy?

I wonder if we can get Keith Marty to dance to it…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1600 hrs

OverTaxed,
Ok, now that made me laugh out loud!

Misterfalls, I agree, this board will not hold out long. If anyone ever shows up at a meeting, or heaven forbid, someone questions them, they get all “a twitter.”

Everything needs to happy and rosy all the time. Cheers!

By the way wasn’t it last year around this time that the teachers refused to attend the spring concert to protest their lack of a contract?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1639 hrs

http://www.yougotrickrolled.com/
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1640 hrs

Oh, you guys. I was just kidding. Let them have their free speech, and counter it politely with your own free speech, not Rick Astley’s free speech. But you do have to do the Rick Astley dance while you engage in your free speech. Because to stand still while Rick Astley dances is wrong. It would take a strong, strong man to dance like Rick Astley in public.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1709 hrs

I can see it now. A group of protesters with boom boxes and Rick Roll T-Shirts. We can also get a bunch a people with loud car stereos and we can pull up next to the school board meeting and crank!

Maybe OT in WI can find that dude who was handing out the petitions against the teachers union last year at that school concert the teachers were protesting. I bet you that guy is a good dancer
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1743 hrs

So your board tries to hold the line and you still have cranks like KT trashing them for doing the right thing. How do you win at that game?

It will be interesting to see how many citizens and parents come out and give the union a piec of their mind. Not many I would imagine. Who wants to publicly berate their kid’s teacher?

My quess is only one of the “tough typing talkers” above will actually show up and say anything. My bet: Mr. Overtaxed. 3 to 1 odds.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1848 hrs

Misterfalls,

I am the guy that had 267 parents sign that petition that night the parents and the principle put on the spring concert, boy did that tick off the union thug they sent out to intimidate me. Didnt work then wont work now..

I am a drummer by trade, and dont really do much dancing..

But I would be willing to dance for lower taxes..
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1851 hrs

Do you still have the petition? Does it have e-mail addresses? If so, maybe you could inform some of these people of the teachers plans!

Actually, you know who this would be a good job for? How about the infamous local politician who is always talking about the corruption in Menomonee Falls and can’t get elected to be dog catcher. He could actually do some good by making some noise about the teachers union.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1902 hrs

I am still not sure I understand what is going on here. Your school board is being picketed by the teachers union for not caving in and yet most of you “conservatives” are ragging on them. Only one of you seems to be willing to do anything to support them and stand up to the union. Am I right here?

If this is so, please stop calling yourselves conservatives, except Mr. Overtaxed, if he actually does what he says.

Note to Mr. Overtaxed: You do not need theatrics to make your point.You have plenty of facts to support your position. WEAC “insurance” plan to name just one.

Mr. Falls, if you want to bring in that local politician you mention you might as well throw a stink bomb into the room. It would be more mature and effective. They way some of you are talking you are making the union look better and better. Sad.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1923 hrs

Im not ragging on anyone but WEAC and anyone that is associated.

I intend to maybe dance my way in to the meeting, and then make a presentation. Then possibly dance my way out.

All the facts that I have gathered have come directly from WEAC.ORG.

My favorite one is, when we were at a meeting a couple of years ago, and the union rep was in front of the room, and when he started going off that Wisconsin isnt a tax hell, I raised my hand and asked if I had heard him correctly. He said that it was a right wing conspiracy.

I then walked right up to him and handed him the page that I printed from WEAC.ORG. The title being:

“Wisconsin is not the state to retire in, taxes are too High”.

He got pretty hot, when I pointed out in front of the crowd that his website says it is a tax hell.

Smack them with facts, and then dance out of the room..

Wendy. How does Owen embed the music.

It would go here..

“Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiii just wanna tell you how I’m feeeeeling, Gotta make you understaaand. Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down…” and repeat..
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 1952 hrs

Mr. Overtaxed. I have a pretty good idea. (I think) What if someone were to video tape the teachers protesting and picketing. It could then be made into a youtube type video and links of this childish, greedy behavior could then be e-mailed to parents, neighbors, and other taxpayers in Menomonee Falls. You could even insert your commentary from your fact sheet. What do you think?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 2004 hrs

Mr. Galt

No one is ragging on the school board here. I’ve actually been impressed during the last two negotiating cycles where they have played a little bit of hard ball. It’s the teachers who end up looking like idiots when they hold things like kids music concerts hostage. The teachers know their contract will eventually be settled. When it is, they will get back pay/benefits so in reality they are not losing anything. It’s just amusing watching them expose themselves for the hypocrites that they are. It’s all for the children! It’s all for the children! No, its really for their tax payer subsidized healthcare, pension plans, and paid summer vacations.

Regarding our former village president. I agree, he is a stink bomb. However, he keeps ragging about all the corruption in Menomonee Falls. He keeps looking in the wrong place. The corruption is with WEAC and the teachers union. Not at village hall.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 2015 hrs

Galt, chill out!
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 11, 2008 at 2017 hrs

KT, Why am I not free to express my views here? Don’t get all “a twitter”

Aren’t you that harpie blogette that was so self rightous about free speech (and everythnig else) until your reader’s comments turned against you? Oh, you are a real asset to MF. (insert smiley face here)
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 0829 hrs

Galt,
If you feel the need to call names, I prefer “realist.”

I am looking at the recent actions of this board and administration (passing an 8.8% levy increase before it had to be reduced to 6.6% due to the loss of enrollment, passing taxpayer funded daycare in local daycare centers, and a board that has forever talked about raising test scores but still there are no results) these things combined with the information about the newly elected board members offered by other commenters here leads me to think that ths board will not be much of a challenge for the union.

If I am wrong I will be the first to congratulate the board for representing the taxpayers, but like others on here and in MF, I think we know how this song will end.

Now back to my Rick Astley music…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 0853 hrs

The board or community (except maybe 6) never talked about raising test scores before Ted Klumb, Todd Marohl and Andy Mohrfeld made it a key issue. The administration made excuses and the public was unaware or ambibilent. BTW How many board meetings have you attended?

When Ted made it a campaign issue were you the first to congratulate him? In fact, I still think you need to take responsibility for the type of candidates running and elected. Too bad the voters aren’t as smart as you. Perhaps Mike lost because of your support. Did you campaign hard for him? Probably not. But with supporters like you who needs WEAC?

By the way, WEAC IS picketing the board, which means that somebody is holding the line. Fact: Your were not the first to congratulate them. You criticized them and according to this blog you were the first to do so. Jut keeping you intellectually honest here KT, or trying to.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 0938 hrs

I personally congratulate the board for holding the line. That IS THE VERY REASON that WEAC is picketing. I hope they continue to hold the line, as this may be the last chance for awhile while the new blood on the board is sitting back learning the system.

My personal belief is that the two new electees to the board can’t spend enough taxpayer money. I was shocked that the one conservative candidate was completely demolished. It was probably because he actually talked about holding the line with the teachers, and WEAC probably had a major get out the vote push.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1011 hrs

I don’t live in the district but find the conversation interesting.I have a few questions:

What is the average salary of the teachers and how long have they been without a contract?

Do you feel that the people responsible for teaching your children are not worth any more than a ditch digger, mechanic, computer repair guy or any other blue collar worker?

As parents, are you taking the responsibility for your childrens future as serious as most teachers do?

What the hell does Rick Astley have to do with any of this?
It would seem that playing that song would be taken as an encouragement to the teachers—“never gonna give you up!!!”
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1050 hrs

I’m not even sure the present contract is expired yet. I believe they may be disatisfied with negotiations for the next one.

When you extrapolate the salaries of most teachers over an entire year, they make more than most white collar workers. Your ditch digger comparison is not releveant.

When my kids teachers refuse to perform any after school activities, becasue they are not happy about their contract, it isnt showing me that they are taking responsibiltiy for childrens future very seriously. Have they dragged out the black friday clothing and armbands again yet this year? What is that teaching my kids???????????? It’s all kind of childish on the teachers part, because their precious contract will eventually be settled, and they will get any back pay or benefits they are entitled to at that time. The teachers just look like complete idiots, and this is what I’m hoping is exposed again!

As far as Rick Roll, it’s a rocking tune and has been used to break up many protests in the last year.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1122 hrs

Moveforward,

The average salary in our district which includes benefits is $97,983. And they are not without a contract, the old one stays in place until a new one is agreed on. Get your facts before you start spouting off.

I don’t think a ditch digger, mechanic, computer repair guy or any other blue collar worker make anything near that much.

Here’s a good question.

How much do you think a ditch digger, mechanic, computer repair guy, or any other blue collar worker pays for their health care, or pension. And do you think any of them will have health care for life when they retire?

Not to mention the fact that teacher work only part time.
OH I know they go to conferences on their day off, but I have watched the schools, and have documentation that this isn’t the case.

When I told them I would be happy to follow them around on the days off, or during the summer to document exactly how much extra time they put in, i was told to f—- off.

I asked the union to prove that they are working these hours by punching in and out, and again I was told to f—- off.

The administration and the teachers do not deserve a pay raise. We are 17 out of 18 districts in test scores, but we are number 2 in cost per student..

I say give me the $15,867.00 and I will put my kids in a private school where the test scores are among the best.

Never give you up (High salaries, and Cadillac healthcare, pensions), never let you down (Our taxes).....
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1129 hrs

OT, Love the last paragraph
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1138 hrs

My wife has been a teacher for 30 years and has never had to go through the picketing and contract disputes that you are experiencing. She is the type of teacher that puts students first and herself last. I realize that is not the way all teachers are. Having said that, many teachers would probably grow ulcers knowing that the contract disputes are counter productive to the education of the children. Try not to paint them all in one stroke. (Not saying you did, just saying it is not productive).

I admire the fact that you care about the education of your children but encourage you to look at other parents and question whether they share the same concerns. Many will, no doubt, but teachers get overwhelmed by the children whose parents do not care as much as you or I.

I am still wondering what the average teacher salary is in Menomonee Falls. In rural Wisconsin, it is in the $40,000 range before benefits. I realize it will be more in larger districts but still not making them rich either. Maybe ditch diggers don’t make us much but say a welder or constuction worker is a better comparison of salaries. They are not the ones setting an example for our children on a daily basis and a good teacher can be worth their weight in gold.

I do not agree with teachers who would picket or condone immature acts, it is counter productive at best and teaches the children who comes first (selfish interest). This decision is a local union decision and I do not believe that WEAC encourages such behavior. My wife would never do it.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1148 hrs

Misterfalls,

Thanks

Do you think I should contact Rich Astley’s people to make sure I dont need to pay a royalty or something?

Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1149 hrs

Moveforward,

Again, how many hours do construction workers work?

20 - 25 a week?

Not a good comparision.

“This decision is a local union decision and I do not believe that WEAC encourages such behavior.”

You’ve got to be kidding!

What are you smoking?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1153 hrs

Move Forward, out teachers did it last contract. They wore black clothing on Fridays, and refused to do any afterschool activities. There was a 5th grade music concert that the kids worked hard on for an entire semester, that the teachers refused to staff outside of school hours. Until Over taxed and a few other citizens made some noise.

OT, as far as Rick Rolling royalties go, I’m sure he is just happy with the attention. Check this out from Wikepedia:

Rickrolling is a prank and Internet meme involving the music video for the 1987 Rick Astley song “Never Gonna Give You Up”. In a Rick Roll, a person provides a link they claim is relevant to the topic at hand which actually takes the user to the Astley video. The URL can be masked or obfuscated in some manner so that the user cannot determine the true source of the link without clicking (and thus satisfying their curiosity). It can also mean playing the song loudly in public in order to be disruptive.[1] A person who falls for the prank is said to be “rickrolled”. In some cases, this term is also used to describe a person who merely hears the song.

The practice began as a variant of an earlier prank originating from the imageboard 4chan called duckrolling, in which a link to a popular celebrity or news item would instead lead to a photoshopped picture of a duck with wheels.[2][1]

By May 2007[3], the practice had become widespread, and it eventually began to garner some coverage in the mainstream media.[4][5][1] An April 2008 poll by SurveyUSA estimated that 18 million Americans have been rickrolled.[6]

Also, the song gets notability with many remixes in YouTube[7].
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1154 hrs

I was not “spouting off”.

I was asking questions to better understand and you are trying to pick a fight.

It is not that way everywhere, I am afraid to ask what your administrators make. It sounds like your teachers make close to what our administrators do.

I still don’t get the Rick Astley thing. Maybe if it was directed at your kids. Don’t give up on them.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1157 hrs

“We’re not gonna take it” by Twisted Sister would get your point across better.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1201 hrs

When the teachers protest, you just jump in line with them and crank that rocking tune, to let them know that they have been rick rolled. In other words, we have heard it before, blah, blah, blah, get your ass back to work and enjoy your high salary’s and benefits. Thats the point of the Rick Roll.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1202 hrs

OT, the problem in our community, as Mr. Galt so eloquently has pointed out, is that no one except a select few, gives a crap about test scores, education, and taxes.

All you have to do is check the honor roll listings from all of our schools. Everyone is on honor roll. So, it doesn’t mean anything to be on honor roll. Parents think, those test scores can’t be right, afterall, little johhny has been on honor roll every semester.

You can’t run a campaign on being financially conservative, because the union will do every thing in their power to make sure you don’t get elected.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1207 hrs

Move,

Picking a fight would be:

The union thug that tried to get me to stop going forward with the spring concert without the teachers. Or the thug they sent out when I was getting parents to sign a petition to praise our school board for holding the line, and admonish the teachers for using our students as pawns.

I didn’t take the bait, I told the union thug that if he didn’t back off, I was going to call 911 on him, and when he didn’t I showed him I wasn’t bluffing. He ran away as I was about to hit the second 1 in 911.

I was the only one that would stand out front, but I still got 267 signatures.

I’m sure we will get called all kinds of things as we walk or dance, past their picket line, Monday night. I plan on video taping the action with sound so we can show the residents exactly what we have.

Im sure we will only get 4 or 5 people to come out.

But it has to start somewhere.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1211 hrs

OT - I think using a combination of Rick Roll and Twisted Sister as background music on that video, putting it on youtube, and then sending it to all the parents listed in the student directories would be a great start toward educating the electorate in this community.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1216 hrs

I can see your point that Twisted Sister my play in to their motivation if they thought you were in support of them.

I had not heard of rick rolling before today. The point is to distract the situation without being negative if I get your point.

Do the teachers in MF only work 20-25 hours per week as OT has implied? Only explanation is that OT is averaging it for the whole year.

Other countries send their kids to school year round but I think the public is the reason for having three months off in the summer. I am not sure how that started but it would produce better educated children if they went for 11 or 12 months..
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1217 hrs

Finally we are getting some adult conversation here on both sides.

Move Forward: Excellent points all. My thought is many teachers don’t want to be at this event but it is thug pressure and gang mentality coercing them to attend. The real issue in my opinion is as OT mentioned, persion contribution, WEAC health, sick days, early retirement, etc. That is what kills the system. It is not the salary. Teachers need to realize this or they will bankrupt the system and be stuck with no benefits when they really need them.

OT: IF you want to pull “pranks” like “rick roll” be prepared to sacrifice your credibility to the entire public and union. On the plus side you will make KT lol…

Mr Falls: You make excellent points as well but you have to leave the pranks behind. What’s next? Lighting a bag of poop on someone’s door?

I will admit that I will not attend this meeting and will not confront my kids teachers. I will support those who are sitting at that table on our behalf as well as those parents who are braver than I am and get up to speak. I would not undermine both by pulling a stupid stunt. It is better to just stay home in that case.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1224 hrs

CNN just had a report about Rick Rolling. I guess I have learned something relevant today. Thanks MisterFalls!

Thank you to John Galt as well for pulling it all together.

This issue is too important to sidetrack it by changing the subject. Stand up and speak to your point but stay on the high road and you will gain more ground.

Make the point that the children are more important than petty “black Friday” type protests. Remind them that the children come first and that these protests are not setting a good example.

Everyone is feeling the pinch of a recessive economy and teachers should realize everyone else is in the same boat.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1240 hrs

yeah, as much as rick rolling would be fun, it would probably go over the heads of the union reps anyway.

The point is that the teachers behavior needs to be exposed, so the parents can see it. If OT is pressurred like he was when standing out with the petition again, it would be great to have that on vido.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1255 hrs

I just came from the library where I heard that one or several PTAs are “modifying” their teacher appreciation events out of disapproval for the teacher action on after school events leaving parents and kids abandoned.

They are using the money to go to charity like a school in Africa instead of appreciation lunches and items for the teachers. Wow. That probably wasn’t easy to bring up and vote on but what a statement. Rick Rolling looks pretty infantile compared to that…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1308 hrs

Ok,

Misterfalls, got any video recording equipment?

I am a willing participant.

Come on moveforward, if I promise to be good will you come out?

We need to do something.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1313 hrs

OT
I mentioned I don’t live in the district but I didn’t say that I am over 200 miles away. If I was closer I would help you make your point.

I went back and read through the thread and it sounds like you are in support of the board as they are trying to hold the line. Even though they have added new members who support the union, your point will be better made by calmly addressing the overall problem that taxes are too high.

Maybe a discussion over merit pay would be in order. The teachers must bring test scores into the top 5 in the county or minimal increases are in order. Make them work as a team as the Army would do. All must perform (better scores) or all will suffer (less % of wages and benefits increase).

If the union follows you again or threatens you in any way you should call 911 without a warning, they will have to live with the bad press.

Another thought, the agenda is likely for organizational purposes this week because of the recent election. This may buy you more time to organize others under a more guided plan to address the board. Your concern should focus on the value of education. The quality is very low for the quantity of money you are spending per student. Not very good value.

Good luck with your efforts!!
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1334 hrs

Move,

Thanks. Do you have the same problems in your districts?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1338 hrs

Merit pay!

MoveForward, could we take up a collection to get you to move here? Excellent ideas-every single one.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1340 hrs

Heres a question for you guy’s.

Can we use Wisconsin’s Direct Legislation to force the board to go to Merit Pay?

Or is Direct Legislation only for use on Village, town or whatever boards?

Does anyone know?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1347 hrs

Other countries send their kids to school year round but I think the public is the reason for having three months off in the summer. I am not sure how that started but it would produce better educated children if they went for 11 or 12 months..

The 9-month school year is based on the agrarian calendar and the farmers who needed their children to work the farm during the growing season. While there is no agricultural need for this any more (very few, if any, farms are now dependent on the labor of children to operate); it has become a custom.

While I am sure teachers would probably not want to teach year-round, if you really want to raise the roof, suggest it to parents.

However, year-round school is not the same as extended school year, though they can be combined. Most year-round calendars simply re-arrange the same 180 days. There are a few schools in Wisconsin that do this. The main educational argument in favor of this is that students lose too much in a three-month break and that more, but shorter, breaks are more productive. Some school districts (in other states but not here) have rotation year-round schedules, so the building is used all year, while about a 1/4 to 1/3 of staff and students are off any any given time. The main argument for this is that it is a more efficient use of buildings.

Even if you could get parents and teachers behind an extended school year (unlikely), it is likely that the union would ask for additional pay.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1354 hrs

A number of electors equal to at least 15% of the votes cast for governor at the last general election in their city or village may sign and file a petition with the city or village clerk requesting that an attached proposed ordinance or resolution, without alteration, either be adopted by the common council or village board or be referred to a vote of the electors. The individual filing the petition on behalf of the electors shall designate in writing an individual to be notified of any insufficiency or improper form under sub. (3).

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0009.pdf
Posted by Owen on April 12, 2008 at 1409 hrs

I don’t believe you can use the direct legislation statute for school districts - only municipalities. Perhaps a lawyer could verify?
Posted by Owen on April 12, 2008 at 1410 hrs

Merit pay?????????????????????? What a wonderful idea!!!!!!!!
Isn’t that one of the reasons unions are in existence? They don’t believe in being paid on the individual merits of the particular member. They believe in being paid based on seniority.

I have no problem paying good teachers what they are worth. I also think that bad teachers should be paid what they are worth. Damn Unions!
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1418 hrs

Galt - Did you say what I think you said??????

The PTA actually is not going to have teacher appreciation fundraiser, but is actually going do divert those funds to schools in developing countries that really need it. GOOD for them! The PTSA has usually been a shill group for the teachers interests. If they are getting angry, this anti teachers union thing might actually get some legs.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1420 hrs

Ok, I’ll bite.

How do you get to a Merit Pay world?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1421 hrs

Thanks John, but I enjoy small town life.

Merit Pay is still a very contentious issue within the realm of Teachers Unions (go figure). Although, after googling it, it seems as though it is gaining ground. I don’t think that any legislation has been enacted in Wisconsin as of yet.

I think that some teachers would make more than they do now where others would make less. When we moved up North, my wife took over a floundering program that was only half time but built it into a thriving program. She could make the argument that she is worth more, but money is not the main priority in our lives. We do alright but seeing the kids succeed and the non-monetary rewards are greater.

I do think that if and when you address the board and/or the union, you should bring it (merit pay) up as it would bring your concerns into a nutshell. The board would have to look into it and consider it as an option. Teachers will not like it but it will make them consider the quality of their work. All good things to bring to the table.

I believe some teachers are worth it but others may be there because they make decent money (not great) and they get 3 months off in the summer when they can enjoy it.

Keep the discussion on the issues and you will gain momentum and respect.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1422 hrs

Move forward. Thanks for your insights. I wish the people here actually cared. For the most part though, there is a small core of us that is bothered by some of this stuff, while the rest bury their heads in the sand and pretend everything is hunky dory.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1427 hrs

Unfortunately, apathy is pretty much universal. People are afraid to get involved for a multitude of reasons.

Keep up the fight but keep it on a high level.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1432 hrs

Mr. Falls you are so right. Too many don’t follow these issues at all and are surprised when they hear about test scores for example. There are fewer but many who know but don’t care.

But I think the worst are the self proclaimed “conservatives” who stay marginally informed, think they are fully enlightened, never participate in democracy except to criticize it or those doing the actual work. Gripe about election results.

They NEVER run for office. They never show up at a regular meeting except if there is a referendum or a garbage tax. They gripe about this and that and wonder how it got to that point when they could have impacted change if they had really been paying attention in the first place. They are always AWOL when the people they elected need their support but they are always sending emails to each other about piddly issues or totally unfounded rumors and then wonder why nobody takes them seriously on major issues, as if it was a constitutional right.

The people they elected (although they probably didn’t work at all to get them elected) probably think they are less in touch than the average hard working parent or citizen who is fully content to have their garbage picked up on a regular basis but is somewhat reliable to show up in an hour of need or community service.

When their “champion” is attacked by the other side, these dime store conservatives don’t even bother to defend them. Scooter Libby was a great example of this. This is where I took a stand. If I am not going to step up to the plate, I am not going to let cowardly weasels pick on or lie about those who are at least trying to make a difference. Engage them in debate, disagree, offer solutions, yes. Snipe at them from afar. No. No fair.

And yet, they expect all elected officials are obligated to respect them, in spite of their actions and lack of manners, as if they are exempt form earning respect like everyone else in society.

If real conservatives want real change, they got to find someone like Scott Walker and support the hell out of him. Yes, it may take some work like actually leaving your home once in a while. Maybe working to elect a candidate instead of whining that they lost.

Me run for office? NO THANKS. Atlas Shrugged!

Google “Who is John Galt” and you will understand where I am coming from. Galt Out.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1643 hrs

John Galt is the name of:

John Galt (Atlas Shrugged), a character in Ayn Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged
John Galt (novelist) (1779–1839), a Scottish novelist and colonial administrator
John Galt (screenwriter), writer of the film Undiscovered.
John Galt Corporation, a New York company involved with demolishing the former Deutsche Bank Building
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1653 hrs

John Galt,

I appreciate your position, but ask for some consideration. As a conservative, I fall into your characterization as a “dime store conservative” in several aspects. I won’t run for office. I rarely go to public meetings. Heck, there are times when I barely leave the house.

The problem is that I have a job, family, church, and other responsibilities that need tending to. It is not possible for me to vigorously attend every state, county, city, school board, etc. meeting in order to express my view. Unless I find a way to manipulate time, it’s not going to happen. So, I pop in from time to time when things get hot and do what I can.

Please try to be a bit more forgiving of those of us who are interested in shaping our government, but must do so within the constraints of the rest of our lives.
Posted by Owen on April 12, 2008 at 1712 hrs

misterfalls,

Please update the e-mail address on your account. You’re subscribed to this thread, and every time someone posts a new comment, the notification to your e-mail account bounces to my Inbox.
Posted by Jed on April 12, 2008 at 1745 hrs

Hi Owen:

I don’t know much about you but I know you spent a sunny day handing out campaign flyers. Yes? That is a good contribution. Did your candidate win?

Bear in mind, many elected officials have a job, family church military, and other responsibilities that need tending to. I don’t know how they do it but they do. That is worthy of respect.

My two elected friends show me some of the emails they get from their so called supporters. They don’t show them to their wives.

Poping in from time to time or engaging in civil conversation with elected officials is just good citizenship. Nobody can expect anyone to be at every meeting. I would bet, you like me, pop in on meetings that are particular interest to us or our expertise. Launching missles at them while pretending to be totally engaged on an issue, as some bloggers do, is just irresponsible and poor citizenship. Many have never met or talked to people they are slamming.

I am not juding but merely trying to explain why so few run. Some maybe run for the wrong reasons but who in their right mind would want to put up with what I described in post #61. If I were to run I would run as a liberal. At least they have people coveering their back.

My concern about conservatism is we are forgetting the lessons from William F. Buckley just like liberals left Patcick Moynihan-both great thinkers whether you agreed with them or not.

Conservatives are degenerating into a bunch of cranks unwilling to do any heavy lifting and expecting things to magically happen for us. We should be zooming past the moveon.org mega cranks in winning the minds of the electorate. The cranks are alienating those who are seeking direction.

Blogs like this and talk radio have advanced another point of view. But, as you have pointed out in the past the blogs have become a low rent zone for snipers. Talk radio should stimulate discussion not be an IV for thought. Just like beer, some can handle it and some ruin their lives. It isn’t the fault of those making the beer. You have wisely tried to elevate the level of discussion here. That is a very positive start.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1753 hrs

Jed - I fixed the e-mail problem, thanks for brining to my attention.

Mr. Galt - With all due respect, you are getting a little preachy with your if you have not run for public office, you can’t complain attitude!

With career, wife, kids, sports, school, extracurricular activities, It’s very difficult to even find time to breathe. That is probably why more people are not interested or don’t pay attention to things like test scores. They don’t have time to pay attention as they are just trying to keep their head above water.

I most likely will run for public office at a later point in my life, I just don’t have the time now. That does not mean that my opinions or views are not valid or have less credibility than yours
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1814 hrs

Preachy? I suppose everyone on this thread could be accused of that. You just don’t like what you think you said. I never said that you can’t complain, in fact I said the opposite.

Engage your public officials but don’t accuse them of things that are intended to assasinate their character instead of persuading them to see the light.

Never running for office is a part of the crank profile. They never intend to serve, just criticize. When someone fixes that then they are on to the next grievence.

Have you ever served on a community committee or something like that? These are all good things to make change in our direction and build credibility.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1901 hrs

Galt, you mention that “never running for office is a part of the crank profile”

I would counter with we have an official who always runs for public office, every single election in fact. Does he fit the “crank profile”?

I think many people don’t run for public office just for the reasons you state. Who want’s to spend all that time to get elected, and then just have their character assasinated. It’s not worth the time and aggravation. As much as I have issues with many of the people on our school board over the years, I do appreciate that they are working for about 50 cents an hour when all is said and done.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 1946 hrs

I see I have missed a little bit. The thread has turned in another direction but still remaining civil.

Being an elected official is not as hard as it seems. I have been a city official for 7 years and it is as time consuming as you let it be. Granted, I am in a much smaller community but the issues are not so different. I also find time to spend working 45-50 hours a week, spending time with my wife and daughter (today they are off shopping so I am on my own), and also serving on many other councils such as church board, tourism, economic development and chamber of commerce. This list is not all inclusive and I really enjoy doing all of them.

It is rewarding when you always look for a solution and not for a fight. I refrain from stating my political party because I refuse to let that dictate the conversation. I have my disagreements with both sides and prefer to remain in the center and do the right thing as God would have it. The times I generally get angry is when the conversation has gotten away from the topic or problem and devolves into name calling and bashing.

We are all in this together and we have to live with the consequences of our actions. The better we treat each other the more we can accomplish, together.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 2025 hrs

I know you spent a sunny day handing out campaign flyers. Yes? That is a good contribution. Did your candidate win?
Yes, I did. Thanks to the help of Owen, Wendy, and others like them who were willing to help out a conservative candidate.

Being an elected official is not as hard as it seems. I have been a city official for 7 years and it is as time consuming as you let it be.

I agree with this. A large part of my platform was about being responsive to constituents. My guess is that people paid attention - I haven’t been sworn in yet but already have four constituent issues on my plate. What’s the saying about being careful what you wish for?

I have faith that I will be able to serve as alderman without letting it affect my performance at my full-time gig, my family time, or my other volunteer activities. However, it’s important to me to live up to my campaign commitments, so I intend to do what is necessary to fulfill them.

Anyway, kudos to the concerned citizens who show up to support their school board on Monday. Never underestimate the power of the vocal few.
Posted by Tony Turner on April 12, 2008 at 2126 hrs

I’ll get this thread back on track

http://www.yougotrickrolled.com
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 12, 2008 at 2129 hrs

Want to see what your kid’s teacher makes?
Login to the home page at menomoneefallsnow.com
On the right side is a link to a list of teacher salaries (by name).
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 13, 2008 at 1010 hrs

Thanks Paul, that is a very interesting link.

I looked up several teachers that I know. Most of them were in the 55 - 60K range, with a fringe benefit package of $31K - 32K

60K/1400 = hourly wage of 42.85

90k (benefit loaded Salary)/1400 = hourly compensation of 64.28

Notes - 1400 equals approximate number of hours teachers work per school year (generous number)
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 13, 2008 at 1104 hrs

misterfalls,

I’m not sure where the 1400 hours comes from. My calculations show the average teacher should be paid for 1664 hours in 2007-08. Using the most common teacher start date of school (August 28, usually about 3 days before the kids), the most common end date (June 4) and including the commonly paid holidays of Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year’s Day, I calculated there were 4 work days in August, 20 in September, 23 in October, 20 in November, 16 in December, 24 in January, 21 in February, 15 in March, 22 in April, 22 in May, and 5 in June. I excluded the 13 days for the most common fall (one day before and after Thanksgiving), winter and spring vacations (5 days in December and 6 days in the spring). I then added back 40 hours, since most jobs provide at least one week paid vacation.

Assuming teachers must be at school from 7:30 to 4:00 with a half-hour for lunch equals an 8-hour day. Yes, students are not in school that whole time, but teachers must prepare the classroom, lesson plans and grade papers. My example assumes this can be done during the work day and on inservice days. Most teachers would disagree with this assumption, however, most professional jobs require some time outside the regularly scheduled “paid” hours.

That adds up to 1,664 hours, or $36.06 per hour based on a $60,000 salary. If you want to reduce the number of hours by 16 (since it has been argued that the two conventions days are not really work days), the hourly rate is $36.41. You can refigure the rate with the benefit package. To be fair, however, when you compare it to wages/salaries in other professions, please be sure to add the benefit cost as well.

The not-quite 3 months off works both for and against teachers. When you compare $60,000 annually with the 2080 hours in a “normal” work year, the $36.06 hourly rate compares to $28.85. On the other hand, in most jobs if you are laid off for 2-1/2 months, you are eligible for unemployment compensation—which teachers aren’t.

There are a lot of issues raised in this thread and you may argue that $36.06 is still too high, or that the benefits are too generous. You obviously believe that achievement does not match the expense. I’m not addressing those issues. But I do believe your 1400 hours was inaccurate.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 13, 2008 at 1358 hrs

52 weeks x 40 hours = 2,080
2,080 /12 months = 173.33 hours per month
173.33 hours per month x 8 months per year teachers work = 1,387 hours per year.

I don’t believe that achievement matches the expenses in our district. We have poor test scores for our county, and spend the second most on schools.

I’m not one to say that I think teachers are overpaid, but they don’t need to be so childish with the picketing, the black friday demonstrations, and holding kids concerts and the like hostage to their union negotiations.

They will get their compensation regardless of when a new contract is eventually signed.

As you may note by the tone of my comments, I do not like unions.

Teachers like to claim they are professionals, but I can’t treat them as professionals as long as they are represented by a union.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 13, 2008 at 1421 hrs

misterfalls,

I understand you don’t like unions. I understand you don’t like the teachers’ tactics. I understand you don’t believe that achievement matches the cost in your district. I understand you don’t think professionals should be represented by unions. I get that you’re angry. I’m not trying to talk you out of that and I’m not saying you’re wrong (or right).

But you brought up work hours. Rounding out teachers’ work time to 8 months is inaccurate, even for rounding. Most jobs provide paid holidays and some vacation. So if you want to round, you need to round to 9 months. School is in session at least September through May. The time off between them is comparable to the vacations and paid holidays most other jobs provide. If you multiply your 173.33 x 9, you get 1,560, which splits the difference, but is slightly closer to my more detailed calculation than to your rough calculation.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 13, 2008 at 1452 hrs

I think we can agree that teachers work 3/4 of the year. They have the chance to earn more money during their summer vacation if they would like.

There is value to having 3 months off in the summer time.

I just don’t like these “teachers are underpaid” discussions that don’t factor the summer vacation into the equation.

If a teacher makes 60K, and works 9 months as you say Purfect Mamma, that is still an hourly wage of $38.46 per hour. That equates to 80K per year for an employee who is working the entire year. This is how you should compare teachers pay with other professions.

Instead, the teachers like to discount the summer vacation from their calculations, and say that they are underpaid compared to other professions.

It’s great work if you can get it.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 13, 2008 at 1515 hrs

There is value to having 3 months off in the summer time.

On that we definitely agree.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 13, 2008 at 1522 hrs

Pretty quiet in here tonight!
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 13, 2008 at 2239 hrs

Misterfalls,

It may have been quite last night, but I bet it wont be after the meeting tonight.

I will give you a recap when I get back. I am taking my camera, so I hope to get some good pictures as well.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 14, 2008 at 1825 hrs

Total waste of time.

50 speakers for the teachers, mostly teachers,

3 or 4 against.

Better served to do a letter to the editor to get the facts out there.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 14, 2008 at 2016 hrs

Bummer. I bet listening to the 50 speakers for the teachers was interesting. They couldn’t possibly have a compelling story.

The question I’m dying to know, would a Rick Roll have been effective?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 15, 2008 at 0006 hrs

OK, so of all the commenters on this thread, only one actually went to the meeting?

Question 2. How many of you contacted your school board members and told them your opinion of this teacher action? My guess is less than the number who actually went.

Not trying to be “preachy” here but take a look in the mirror some time. It is a good thing you all did not plan the Boston Tea Party or we would still be dirnking it and singing"God Save the King” at sporting events.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 16, 2008 at 0838 hrs

Hey overtaxed, were you really at the school board meeting? 50? Really?

There were 15 people who made public comment at the school board meeting: one spoke about the band program, one about immunizations, three parents spoke in support of the teachers, one parent spoke against, one parent shamed both sides for not getting the contract settled sooner and the last seven speakers were union members. There were many more than 50 teachers in attendance, but only seven of them spoke.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 16, 2008 at 1448 hrs

Yes I was there.

I was standing in back listening to the comments under their breath, and then taking out the test scores to shut them up.

Sorry I didnt have a pen and paper to document exactly how may were for and how many were against.

It was pretty interesting that they were using the same old tired crap.

“We are working without a contract”, no you still are under your old contract.

Its for the kids. Oh ya, for every $100.00 we give the district, 13.57 goes for the kids. Oh ya they really care.

So were you there and did you speak.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 16, 2008 at 1809 hrs

Yes, I was at the meeting. I did not go to the podium. I would have liked to have been in the back to hear the teacher’s comments amongst themselves. Were you really waving test scores around? I’m not sure they are all fully aware of our rank in the county. I agree the teachers are always under a contract even if it’s not current. They feel they’re not valued if negotiations get dragged out. Teaching is a people business, so your $13.57 wouldn’t do much good without a teacher in the classroom. Anyway, isn’t it more like 80% of the budget being spent on teachers? Of course they all care about the students—in differing degrees.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 17, 2008 at 0700 hrs

Yes, I was at the meeting. I did not go to the podium. I would have liked to have been in the back to hear the teacher’s comments amongst themselves. Were you really waving test scores around? I’m not sure they are all fully aware of our rank in the county. I agree the teachers are always under a contract even if it’s not current. They feel they’re not valued if negotiations get dragged out. Teaching is a people business, so your $13.57 wouldn’t do much good without a teacher in the classroom. Anyway, isn’t it more like 80% of the budget being spent on teachers? Of course they all care about the students—in differing degrees.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 17, 2008 at 0700 hrs

Yes, I was at the meeting. I did not go to the podium. I would have liked to have been in the back to hear the teacher’s comments amongst themselves. Were you really waving test scores around? I’m not sure they are all fully aware of our rank in the county. I agree the teachers are always under a contract even if it’s not current. They feel they’re not valued if negotiations get dragged out. Teaching is a people business, so your $13.57 wouldn’t do much good without a teacher in the classroom. Anyway, isn’t it more like 80% of the budget being spent on teachers? Of course they all care about the students—in differing degrees.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 17, 2008 at 0701 hrs

Yes, I was at the meeting. I did not go to the podium. I would have liked to have been in the back to hear the teacher’s comments amongst themselves. Were you really waving test scores around? I’m not sure they are all fully aware of our rank in the county. I agree the teachers are always under a contract even if it’s not current. They feel they’re not valued if negotiations get dragged out. Teaching is a people business, so your $13.57 wouldn’t do much good without a teacher in the classroom. Anyway, isn’t it more like 80% of the budget being spent on teachers? Of course they all care about the students—in differing degrees.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 17, 2008 at 0701 hrs

June,

Go to MF school district and take a look at the budget.

Just over 86% is spent on salaries, pensions and healthcare.

Meaning $13.57 is all thats left to spend on the facilities and the kids.

Your point that $13.57 wouldnt do much good without a teacher doesnt make any sense.

Reading your post, gives me the impression you are either a teacher, administrator, or a union rep.

And if they really do care about the kids, they sure have a warped way of showing it.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 17, 2008 at 0747 hrs

I still don’t see what the big deal is whether the teachers have a contract or not. If you think about it, the terms of the old one are probably better than the new one they will eventually get (from a benefits perspective). Yeah, they will get a litlle more pay, but that will end up being retroactive anyway. So what are the teachers gaining by all the noise they are making?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on April 21, 2008 at 0105 hrs

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