McCain Hits Obama For Socialist Tax Plan
CONCORD, N.C. (AP)—Republican presidential candidate John McCain on Saturday accused Democratic rival Barack Obama of favoring a socialistic economic approach by supporting tax cuts and tax credits McCain says would merely shuffle wealth rather than creating it.
“At least in Europe, the Socialist leaders who so admire my opponent are upfront about their objectives,” McCain said in a radio address. “They use real numbers and honest language. And we should demand equal candor from Sen. Obama. Raising taxes on some in order to give checks to others is not a tax cut; it’s just another government giveaway.”
[...]
Obama has said his tax policies would cut payments for 95 percent of working Americans, while increasing them only for families making more than $250,000 a year. McCain has argued that 40 percent of Americans don’t pay income taxes, either because they are seniors or don’t meet minimum earnings thresholds, so the only way to cut their taxes is to give them various credits.
“In other words, Barack Obama’s tax plan would convert the IRS into a giant welfare agency, redistributing massive amounts of wealth at the direction of politicians in Washington,” McCain said in the radio address.
As one of those 60% of Americans who does pay the federal income tax, I’d rather not be any more of a welfare provider than I already am.
Obama’s turning it right back on McCain, saying that only someone as out of touch as McCain would call tax cuts for working people “socialist.” And they are tax cuts for working people.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 18, 2008 at 1803 hrs
Um, no. Handing someone who did not pay any income taxes a check is not a tax cut. It’s welfare and pure income redistribution. It is correctly labeled “socialist.”
Posted by Owen on October 18, 2008 at 1832 hrs
Someone who works for a living pays taxes, don’t they? The Earned Income Tax Credit used to be something conservatives pushed hard for. I guess not anymore.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 18, 2008 at 1836 hrs
Someone who works for a living pays taxes, don’t they?
No, not 40% of them. They pay taxes, but not the federal income tax, which is what we’re talking about here.
Posted by Owen on October 18, 2008 at 1841 hrs
No, they get money pulled out of their paychecks. That’s a tax.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 18, 2008 at 1919 hrs
They get the tax pulled out and then have it all returned when they file their return, thus resulting in a zero tax burden. Seriously, do you know how the income tax works?
Posted by Owen on October 18, 2008 at 1927 hrs
http://www.tax foundation.org/ research/show/1410.html
The link was blacklisted. Remove the spaces to make it work.
Posted by Owen on October 18, 2008 at 1934 hrs
Have you heard of a payroll tax?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 18, 2008 at 1951 hrs
WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THE INCOME TAX!!! Again, we all pay a lot of taxes, but the Obama plan that McCain criticized is about the income tax. Pay attention, will ya?
Posted by Owen on October 18, 2008 at 1956 hrs
Maybe Steve-O-Genius could understand an example of what Owen has described.
a) When a person receives a pay check the employer with holds State and Federal taxes.
b) Said person files there taxes at the end of the year and gets all their money back.
c) If said persons income is low enough they they may get more back than they paid in. ie Earned Income Credit
d) Comrade Obama proposes to give these non tax payers even more than they are currently receiving. ie Socialism. Redistribution of wealth.If you still can’t understand there is no hope you’ll change.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 18, 2008 at 2022 hrs
A progressive tax structure is not socialist. Increasing tax revenue from a particular industry so you can cut checks to citizens is socialist. Nationalizing parts of the banking, insurance and mortgage industry is socialist. Borrowing from overseas to send checks to citzens in the forms of tax rebates is socialist.
Those ideas, the authority to do which have all been enacted into law, are the brain child of either the current Republicans in the White House or the top of the Republican ticket looking to take up residence next.
For fiscal responsibility, vote Democrat.
Don’t worry guys, this happens all the time. Your party used to be the party of civil rights. I’m sure the GOP will get its fiscally conservative street cred back some day. McCain and Palin don’t have that resume, but I’m sure you’ll nominate someone with real budget crunching chops down the line.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 18, 2008 at 2204 hrs
Owen, did Obama ever specify “income tax”? Why are you limiting the discussion to income tax?
Let me ask everybody here a question. According to McCain’s platform, will all Americans get a tax credit for $5000 for the purchase of a health care plan? Or just those who pay income taxes of more than $5000? If it’s the former, McCain is, by his own definition, a socialist class warrior.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 0034 hrs
I suggest you check the Obama tax plan once again, Lefty, as he is proposing to specifically borrow to send checks to citizens in the form of “tax credits” for people who don’t pay taxes.
Your a socialist. I get it.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 0852 hrs
No, they pay taxes.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1046 hrs
No, Steve-O. They don’t pay taxes.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1141 hrs
They get the tax pulled out and then have it all returned when they file their return, thus resulting in a zero tax burden.
Actually Owen, that doesn’t necessarily have to happen that way. People who qualify for the “Earned Income Tax Credit” can file to receive it in Advance. The credit gets added to their take home pay, and if done correctly, they don’t even have to wait for a refund. The employer upfronts the refund, but it is usually is offset against the taxes they have withheld for their other employes.
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96515,00.html#QA4
Q3. How do I get Advance EITC payments?
A3. See if you qualify for Advance EITC payments by completing the five questions on the back of Form W-5, Earned Income Credit Advance Payment Certificate, available here or through your employer.
If you qualify, complete the bottom part of the Form W-5 and give it to your employer. Then, based on your income, your employer adds additional money to your take-home pay in each paycheck.If your only income is from self-employment, you cannot qualify for advance EITC payments.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1214 hrs
Yes, they do pay taxes.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1419 hrs
SteveO,
I’m not sure what you aren’t getting here. The plan by Obama that we are discussing is about the INCOME tax. 40%+ of Americans do not pay any federal income taxes. Are you seriously denying that fact or just blowing smoke, because the data is there to back it up?
And no, if you had income taxes withheld from your check all year and then got it all back in a refund, it does not mean that you paid the income tax. It means that you gave the government an interest-free loan and you missed out on the opportunity cost of being able to use that money yourself.
Posted by Owen on October 19, 2008 at 1557 hrs
No, you pay payroll taxes to the federal government even if you pay zero income tax.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1656 hrs
Yes, I know, but THAT’S NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. This is very specifically about the income tax. Obama’s plan for the income tax is socialist and 40%+ of Americans don’t pay the INCOME tax. THAT’S what we’re talking about.
My goodness…
Posted by Owen on October 19, 2008 at 1709 hrs
Hey Steve - do me a favor and don’t vote until you understand what taxes are.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1730 hrs
Calm down, Owen. Yes, this is what this is about, because you’re claiming these people aren’t paying taxes and still getting a bunch of money refunded to them from the government. But they do pay taxes directly out of their paycheck, whether it’s called income tax or not. You’re playing semantics here.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1754 hrs
No, it’s not semantics. It’s talking about different things. Yes, they pay other taxes, but that’s moot in this conversation. I never claimed that they weren’t paying taxes at all. I claimed that they weren’t paying any income taxes.
So, back on topic, do you now acknowledge that 40%+ of Americans don’t pay any federal income taxes? Further, do you acknowledge that Obama’s plan to give income tax “rebates” to people who did not pay any income taxes is straight income redistribution?
Posted by Owen on October 19, 2008 at 1806 hrs
No, I don’t, unless somehow progressive taxation equals “socialism.” But it doesn’t.
And nobody here answered my question. If working Americans paid no income tax and got the McCain health care tax credit, isn’t that socialism, too?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1811 hrs
I need to clarify the semantics in my comment #16 -
they don’t even have to wait for a refund
It is the “credit” that gets added to their paycheck. It would be convoluted thinking to infer that they are getting a “refund” - you can’t get a refund for something you didn’t pay for in the first place.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1817 hrs
Steve0,
You didn’t answer the questions. I didn’t say that progressive taxation equals socialism. Also, Obama’s plan has nothing to do with progressive taxation. It has to do with taking money from some people and handing it to others. Again, I ask… one at a time…
do you now acknowledge that 40%+ of Americans don’t pay any federal income taxes?
and
do you acknowledge that Obama’s plan to give income tax “rebates” to people who did not pay any income taxes is straight income redistribution?
I’ll cut to the chase. Both of the above things are facts. They are documented and provable. The characterization of socialism is a separate thing. We can’t debate whether Obama’s plan is socialism or not until you at least acknowledge reality. You may support Obama’s plan. Fine. But at least understand what it is.
Posted by Owen on October 19, 2008 at 1847 hrs
If you can show that the people receiving tax credits pay no federal taxes before receiving the credits, I’ll agree that it’s welfare.
Now will someone answer my question?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1851 hrs
Easy,
Here’s a summary of Obama’s income tax plan:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html
In part, it reads:
Here’s the political catch. All but the clean car credit would be “refundable,” which is Washington-speak for the fact that you can receive these checks even if you have no income-tax liability. In other words, they are an income transfer—a federal check—from taxpayers to nontaxpayers. Once upon a time we called this “welfare,” or in George McGovern’s 1972 campaign a “Demogrant.” Mr. Obama’s genius is to call it a tax cut.
The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year. The Heritage Foundation’s Center for Data Analysis estimates that by 2011, under the Obama plan, an additional 10 million filers would pay zero taxes while cashing checks from the IRS.
The total annual expenditures on refundable “tax credits” would rise over the next 10 years by $647 billion to $1.054 trillion, according to the Tax Policy Center. This means that the tax-credit welfare state would soon cost four times actual cash welfare. By redefining such income payments as “tax credits,” the Obama campaign also redefines them away as a tax share of GDP. Presto, the federal tax burden looks much smaller than it really is.
And no, I’m not going to let you change the subject to escape this. Can we agree that Obama’s income tax plan is welfare?
Posted by Owen on October 19, 2008 at 1901 hrs
A wage earner can adjust their W-4 withholding certificate so that no income tax is withheld. And as I have stated before, if qualified, the Earned Income Credit can be advanced by adding it to your “net pay”.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p505/ch01.html#d0e2495
You can claim exemption from withholding for 2008 only if both of the following situations apply.
For 2007 you had a right to a refund of all federal income tax withheld because you had no tax liability.
For 2008 you expect a refund of all federal income tax withheld because you expect to have no tax liability.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 1939 hrs
Bzzt. Wrong answer.
I’m not changing the subject, either. By McCain’s own standards, he’s a socialist promising welfare.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 2004 hrs
You know what? Never mind. Given that I have placed the evidence at your feet and you refuse to even discuss it, there are only two possibilities.
1) You know the truth and are intentionally trying to distract by bringing up other subjects and blending the terminology.
2) You are an idiot who can’t figure it out.
Either way, I have better things to do than waste any more time on you. The floor is yours. Please comment more to illustrate the socialist mindset. It’s entertaining.
Posted by Owen on October 19, 2008 at 2019 hrs
The editorial you cite claims that Obama is giving a tax refund to people who do not pay federal taxes. That’s not true. Somehow in your world, the only federal taxes someone pays are income taxes.
You’re probably right that it’s best not to argue the point, given that we can’t agree on terms. But it’s disappointing to see that conservatives won’t give credit for Obama for promising to cut taxes.
And again, I’ll point out that if I grant you your argument that a tax credit resulting in a refund for those who pay no income taxes (but pay other federal taxes), McCain is guilty of the same thing you and he are repeatedly attacking Obama on.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 2044 hrs
2) You are an idiot who can’t figure it out.
Taking into account all the other posts from this buffoon, I’m going with this as the answer.
The editorial you cite claims that Obama is giving a tax refund to people who do not pay federal taxes.
Here’s the key to take from the “editorial”...
The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year.
Now harden the fuck up and understand that you’re being a trollie little prick, just like always.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 2301 hrs
Knock off the personal attacks. Like I’ve said over and over, income tax is not the only federal tax working people pay.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 19, 2008 at 2311 hrs
#
Knock off the personal attacks. Like I’ve said over and over, income tax is not the only federal tax working people pay.
Posted by Steve-O on October 19, 2008 at 2311 hrsSo what other federal tax do you pay Steve-O?
The only one i can think of would be the tax for the short bus your on.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 0529 hrs
Knock off the personal attacks.
If you walk like a duck and talk like a duck…
Like I’ve said over and over, income tax is not the only federal tax working people pay.
You keep saying it over and over, but Owen, MHT, BVBigBro, Bill, Dave, McCain and the author of that “editorial” are ONLY TALKING ABOUT FEDERAL INCOME TAX, you troll. Obama’s plans for FEDERAL INCOME TAX are socialist.
So far, you can’t grasp that concept, and keep proving your lack of intelligence to the world. I will recall this glaring display lack of understanding to a simple concept any time you post here from now on.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 0840 hrs
And like I said before, there’s no point in limiting the discussion to income tax. McCain proposes tax credits, yet no one is calling him a socialist.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 0915 hrs
OK, speaking of “glaring display lack of understanding to a simple concept (sic),” as Steve-O and others have pointed out, there are other types of federal taxes beyond the income tax. It serves Senator McCain’s interests to limit the discussion to the income tax only, but it does a disservice to the rest of us, because it’s so limiting.
It’s like describing the spread offense only using a 5-yard crossing route in your description. There’s a lot more to it than that. Colin Powell was right yesterday: taking a perfectly valid policy statement, i.e., looking at tax policy, and using that to slander someone as a socialist, is detrimental to the political process and detrimental to our nation.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 0940 hrs
Not as detrimental as the socialism being proposed, apc.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 1004 hrs
Cutting taxes is socialist!
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 1008 hrs
And like I said before, there’s no point in limiting the discussion to income tax. McCain proposes tax credits, yet no one is calling him a socialist.
Taking into account your previous posts, this means that you’ve given up and finally understand that you completely misunderstood what you were talking about.
Take a look at the title of Owen’s post, “McCain Hits Obama For Socialist Tax Plan”. Then he discusses how McCain does indeed lable Obama’s plan as Socialist. The talk has been about how his plans do indeed match up to the definition of Socialism. You can’t understand that, so you get uppity… good for you, you contribute nothing to the discussion but distraction. Yeah for you.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 1107 hrs
there are other types of federal taxes beyond the income tax. It serves Senator McCain’s interests to limit the discussion to the income tax only, but it does a disservice to the rest of us, because it’s so limiting.
No, he’s trying to focus on the trouble area for the swing voters to see. Just because there are additional federal taxes (I can think of FUTA and Social Security) doesn’t change the fact that people who pay no federal income tax would get a larger check back from the federal government under Obama’s plan. No one gets a refund from Social Security, so why talk about it?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 1111 hrs
No, he’s trying to focus on the trouble area for the swing voters to see
No, he’s assuming swing voters to be too stupid to see the whole picture. It’s condescending and all too typical of the Republican Party of the last several election cycles.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 1225 hrs
and all too typical of the Republican Party of the last several election cycles.
AND and all too typical of the Democratic Party of the last several election cycles.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 20, 2008 at 1314 hrs
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