Expanding Vouchers
Let’s hope they can get this done.
Speaking to The Journal Times’ editorial board Monday, Vos laid out his legislative agenda. Alongside passing a mining bill, examining state regulations and looking at Wisconsin’s tax code, Vos listed educational reform on his main agenda.
In Racine, Vos said, the school choice program implemented in 2011 has proved successful, meeting voucher caps both years prior and allowing unlimited vouchers starting in 2013.
“If there are other parts of the state that have issues where there are parents that are concerned about the quality of their own public schools, I’d like to open the dialogue to say, ‘Should we give them an opportunity to have school choice as well?’” he said in a separate interview Monday.
Of course everyone should have choice!
Why is choice only good where public schools are obscenely failing?
Choice is good to keep public schools on their toes, even where public schools are perceived as “good”.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 18, 2012 at 0921 hrs
Expanding vouchers is education reform? Sounds about Robin Vos’s speed. Is he at all qualified to talk about education reform? What are his credentials in this area?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 18, 2012 at 1815 hrs
Why are special education children denied the chance of a religious or private school? Lack of funds. Each child has an amount the state has for education, please allow parents the choice for any school or homeschool.
Vouchers should be attached to each and every child. School choice for all!
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 18, 2012 at 1932 hrs
Let us break with our United States’ constitution’s separation of church and state and fund religious/private education for the children of people who choose to be incapable of affording private school by not practicing appropriate family planning, family budgeting, and saving/making enough money through their own fate, education, hard work and talent.
Vos - go back to proving voter ID fraud by proposing a $10,000 reward per tip that puts someone away. Problem solved. Bullshit addressed cheaply and efficiently.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 18, 2012 at 2206 hrs
Dismas,
...“constitution’s separation of church and state…”
This language is NOT in the constitution. This is phraseology contrived by the Supreme court.
The establishment clause says Congress shall make no law prohibiting the establishment and exercise of religion.
With public schools today, we have government OVERFUNDING the destructive religion of secular humanism. A destructive religion that expels Christ from society.
So when public schools give up it’s religion, you can make the argument certain religions should be discriminated against.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 0716 hrs
Let us break with our United States’ constitution’s separation of church and state and fund religious/private education for the children of people who choose to be incapable of affording private school by not practicing appropriate family planning, family budgeting, and saving/making enough money through their own fate, education, hard work and talent.
That unintelligible dribble isn’t even worth countering.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 0906 hrs
The establishment clause says Congress shall make no law prohibiting the establishment and exercise of religion.
Try again Kevin. That’s not what the establishment clause says.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 1351 hrs
We should also have a choice when it comes to transportation and not just have to use the public bus….so when do I get a voucher for my free car? And how about the police? If I don’t like the job they are doing can I get a voucher to pay for private security?
Seriously…why are so many of ya’ll so eager to take my tax dollars and start spending with no accountability?! Unless I have a voice on the board of whatever private school you’re funneling my money to, it sure sounds like taxation without representational to me…Posted by purplepenquin on December 19, 2012 at 1352 hrs
Wow. #8… What an irrational strawman. No accountability? Wow that’s stupid. Free market is the ultimate accountability.
The only people against vouchers are those that lose due to free market and accountability. And those who truly do not care about children. It is a practically a litmus test.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 1407 hrs
Mike:
Talk about a strawman…“The only people against vouchers are those that lose due to free market and accountability. And those who truly do not care about children.”
that’s just bullshit.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 1428 hrs
Mike, while there may be accountability in the market, voucher schools do not need to meet any accredation standards. They are not regulated in the same way public schools are. Teachers do not need to be licensed. They can refuse students. That is why many of them have no Special Education students.
Ultimately, they may be accountable to the market, but they are accountable to no specific set of educational standards.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 1436 hrs
Kevin, directly from the Bill of Rights:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 1528 hrs
Av, VA,
People are free to establish religion and exercise it in our culture. That is the basic purpose of establishment clause.
If you are talking about the idea that there should be no state established religion…that’s fine…let’s start by defunding public schools and the religion of secular humanism.
Or is it the fact that only Christians should be discriminated against when it comes to religious funding?
I thought liberalism was better than that.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 1725 hrs
Ultimately, they may be accountable to the market, but they are accountable to no specific set of educational standards.
Posted by anothervoice on December 19, 2012 at 1436 hrs
And, yet ... the end result (the true deliverable) is measurably better.
But, the true accountability is to parents…. (ie. the market)
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 1841 hrs
Mike,
I agree. I’m tired of being insulted by public school establishment that holding my kids to high standards, including Christ centered standards, is impossible for me to do through the school I choose.
Somehow, the educational establishment religion is: parents are incompetent.
I say its time to abolish the establishment religion of the teachers union….or at least let it compete in a level playing field.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 1846 hrs
People are free to establish religion and exercise it in our culture. That is the basic purpose of establishment clause.
No…it’s not. It’s not at all.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 2041 hrs
Let’s get one thing straight—liberalism (and conservatism) are NOT religions. They are political ideologies.
“If you are talking about the idea that there should be no state established religion…that’s fine…let’s start by defunding public schools and the religion of secular humanism.”In general, the citizens of a given community from different religious backgrounds have chosen freely, i.e. voted on, i.e. majority rules, to create public schools open to all faiths and denominations not subject to one dominant or exclusive formal religion. Secular humanism is NOT a religion…period!
Mr. Schuenemann, you have the right to have your children attend a school that espouses your religious values. If YOU do not prefer your local school district, the one in which the people there collectively have decided that religious instruction is not the appropriate venue, feel free to leave. That is YOUR choice.
It would appear that the people there have made it abundantly clear that they do not want religion, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, to be proselytized. Moreover, I would imagine that citizens have a say in the curriculum, again by majority rules via the school board, as to whether “controversial” topics may be discussed that may contradict or challenge your religious views. If you do not want your son/daughter exposed to these things, feel free to have your children go elsewhere or present those things in the way you deem appropriate as an alternative.
Now, should ever those same citizens decide as a group that the public schools is the venue for religion, either one particular faith or multiple faiths to be embraced, then they have that freedom to put forth that initiative.
Regarding the concept of “separation of church and state”, In 1797, the Senate unanimously ratified a treaty with Tripoli, a Muslim country in North Africa, that stated in Article 11:As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
According to some historians, Article 11 was intended to
ensure that religion would NOT govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. The pact was made between sovereign states, and perhaps confirms that the American government was establishing itself as religiously neutral.In the words of Thomas Jefferson (1802)...“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.”
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 2151 hrs
This week I visited a choice school in Milwaukee that educates for less than $7,000 per student. Some incredible things were going on in that school. It all encouraged me so much!!
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 19, 2012 at 2217 hrs
Ah, yes…. Green Car Man of La Mancha has stumbled on the treaty of Tripoli. Let the hijinx ensue…
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 20, 2012 at 0754 hrs
But, the true accountability is to parents
I’m glad that the parents are able to hold these for-profit schools accountable, but they are still taking my taxdollars and giving them to an organization that has no accountability at all towards me. Ya’ll really support such a thing?
Like I said before, these school vouchers are nothing more than taxation without representation. Let the public vote for the school board of any school that wants public funding…otherwise it is just yet another GOP plan to re-distribute wealth from the public to the private.
And if ya’ll insist on following through on this plan anyways, then please explain why I can’t get a voucher to buy a car or to hire private police…shouldn’t I have a “choice” in those matters as well?
Posted by purplepenquin on December 20, 2012 at 0916 hrs
Do I really need to list the billions of dollars spent without accountability? Let’s give up that ridiculous red herring already.
Standards…MPS. enough said.
And feel free to run for the board of any private school you see fit.
I sincerely view this as teachers and unions putting their money and power ahead of the needs of kids. I also view this as a fear of competition from the same people.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 20, 2012 at 0930 hrs
purple,
Public schools are accountable to the taxpayer?
Since when?
MPS has a 42% HS graduation rate. And as someone who attended UW-Milwaukee, I knew several MPS “social promotion” graduates attending UWM who could not read!
UWM has a remedial English course all students are required to take to insure UWM does not graduate illiterates.
Since MPS is largely funded by the State taxpayer, I ask you…eaxactly when did public school accountability start?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 20, 2012 at 0932 hrs
Kevin, and depending on whose study you read, the choice schools in Milwaukee as a whole are performing at a standard below MPS.
And, if you believe MPS in not publically accountable, that does not change the fact that these voucher schools educate with taxpayer money and have no accountability for it to the vast majority of people who pay taxes and do not use the vouchers.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 20, 2012 at 1014 hrs
I’d say that the threat of losing your customers provides a hundred times more accountability than an elected school board.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 20, 2012 at 1022 hrs
@purple
And if ya’ll insist on following through on this plan anyways, then please explain why I can’t get a voucher to buy a car or to hire private police…shouldn’t I have a “choice” in those matters as well?
You are not mandated by law to have a car. You are mandated by law to go to school. Private schools in the voucher program provide an educational service for a government fee, just like private hospitals provide a service to Medicaid recipients.
And as for accountability, what are the accountability measures in public schools that does not exist in the voucher program? Schools in the voucher program administer the same state test, get audited by the government every year, must be accredited and report their data. If the school underperforms, students go elsewhere. If a public school underperforms, DPI just sends it more money.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 20, 2012 at 1024 hrs
I don’t have a horse in this race, but I can’t help but wonder with all the questions concerning the efficacy of for-profit colleges and technical schools why for-profit K-12 seem to escape the same reservations?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 20, 2012 at 1034 hrs
Truth Investigator, you may want to check your sources. I do not believe voucher schools need to be accredited by any particular agency—though many are.
THeir teachers also do not need to be licensed by anyone.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 20, 2012 at 1604 hrs
“Ah, yes…. Green Car Man of La Mancha has stumbled on the treaty of Tripoli. Let the hijinx ensue…
Posted by Mike on December 20, 2012 at 0754 hrsIt’s called using sources to support one’s position. Try it sometime, you may actually learn something
“I’d say that the threat of losing your customers provides a hundred times more accountability than an elected school board.”So, Mike, are you suggesting that school districts ought to be run like a business? That school boards, elected by the people lack the intellect to direct that undertaking? If yes, fascinating. If no, please provide further explanation, I’m interested in your thought process.
Mr. Schuenemann—Public schools are accountable to the taxpayer? Since when?Since always. If the majority of citizens are unhappy with the financial decisions of their current school board, they can work to elect individuals to represent their interests. Duh!
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 20, 2012 at 1932 hrs
Public schools are accountable to the taxpayer? Since when?
Not sure how it is done where you live, but here in WI we have school boards that are elected by the public.
You are mandated by law to go to school.
Not sure how it is done where you live, but here in WI it is not mandated that children go to a school. Homeschooling is perfectly legal.
Do I really need to list the billions of dollars spent without accountability?
Just ‘cause there are a lot of other bad ideas already doesn’t mean we have to add more to it, does it? Or are you saying that taxation without representation is a good idea for some situations? Please clarify…are you holding up those other examples as a good thing or bad?
Posted by purplepenquin on December 20, 2012 at 2253 hrs
Just pointing out your transparent hypocrisy.
Much in the same manner that teachers don’t express any concern for students leaving for private schools ... until they take their $$$ with them.
And I iterate again… The threat of losing your customers provides a hundred times the accountability of a school board.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 0910 hrs
Just pointing out your transparent hypocrisy.
Beg your pardon, but unless you beleive that “billions of dollars spent without accountability” is a good thing then you’re the one who is being a hypocrite in regards to this issue. Tho, since you won’t actually answer the question, you’re trying to hide it rather than be transparent.
To clear it up, I am not on favor of taxation without representation and sincerely beleive that billions of $$$ being spent with no accountability is a bad policy/law for our country, state, county, and city. You seem to be saying that it is a good thing for tax dollars to be spent with no accountability to the taxpayers. If that ain’t correct then can you please clarify. Thanks.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 21, 2012 at 1052 hrs
I iterate, for the third time… The threat of losing your customers provides one hundred times the accountability of an elected board.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 1103 hrs
If I am paying for it then I am a customer, so where is the accountability to me and other taxpayers without school-age children?
And speaking of saying something for the third time: Did you bring up those other billions of taxdollars being spent with no accountability as a good thing or a bad thing?
Posted by purplepenquin on December 21, 2012 at 1122 hrs
The lack of accountability for the billions is a bad thing. Your lack of concern for these billions is the hypocrisy.
Exactly what accountability do you want for MY CHILDREN? For my neighbors…I want their children to have the education seen fit by cette parents.
Please… tell me why you feel I should not maintain the accountability of the school system for my children. See if you can get beyond that you or your landlord pays property taxes.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 1141 hrs
Your lack of concern for these billions is the hypocrisy
Excuse me? I clearly stated…twice even..(messages #29 ) that I did not approve. Why are you pretending otherwise? Do you even read the messages you are responding to?
The hypocrisy, since you insist on bringing it up, is you saying those are bad but this one is good.
Exactly what accountability do you want for MY CHILDREN?
It ain’t about your kids, it is about my tax dollars. If you want to have zero accountability for how my money is being spent then don’t take any of my money.
To clear it up, I ain’t uptight about the gov’t taking my wealth and re-distributing it to your kids…this ain’t about that at all. I agree that it takes a village to raise a child and know that education is good for society as a whole.
But I am very uptight about just writing a check and having no say at all in how it is being spent. If you don’t want me to have any say in it then don’t ask for my money.
tell me why you feel I should not maintain the accountability of the school system for my children
I ain’t saying you can’t do so. And actually, you got the question backwards…tell me why you feel I should not maintain the accountability of the tax dollars you are taking from me.
I mean, other than “well, look at all this other bad stuff already happening, so what does one more matter?”....is that really how you’re gonna justify it?
Posted by purplepenquin on December 21, 2012 at 1228 hrs
For the fourth time, the threat of losing customers provides one hundred times the accountability of an elected board.
What is my definition of accountability, wrt schools and taxes?
School must prepare my kids for certain aspects of adulthood; education being the primary. Being that my children spend roughly 1500 hours per year at school, I have an expectation that goes beyond books.
My expectation of the system, what I hold the system accountable, is providing the needs specific to parents wrt their children’s education, within reason.
What do you hold the school system accountable?
You are a teacher, aren’t you?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 1244 hrs
the threat of losing customers provides one hundred times the accountability of an elected board.
Please tell me exactly how a for-profit school will “lose me” if I am not satisfied with how they are using my money.
You are a teacher, aren’t you?
No, I am not.
You’re a janitor at a for-profit school, aren’t you?
*rolls eyes*
Seriously, quit with these silly games and please just explain why you feel I should not have some accountability for the tax dollars you are taking from me.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 21, 2012 at 1254 hrs
How will a public school lose me if I am not satisfied?
I will gladly explain…. But first you need to define this accountability.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 1302 hrs
And, c’mon… What do you do for a living? I am not far off…
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 1312 hrs
How will a public school lose me if I am not satisfied?
As it has been brought up many time already, here in Wisconsin we have school boards that are elected by the general public rather than just the parents of the children going to the school. That way even those of us who don’t have children have a say in how our money is being spent. How is it done where you live?
As the parent of a school-age child, you also have many other options available to you: open enrollment allows you to go to a different district, home schooling, cyber-classes, as well as paying your own way for a private school rather than asking for a handout from me to do so.
Again, I wanna point out that I ain’t against giving you a handout, but I am against allowing you to just spend my money willy-nilly without me having any say in what you’re spending it on.
But first you need to define this accountability
By “accountability” I mean what voice do I have in how the for-profit school is gonna spend my money.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 21, 2012 at 1411 hrs
How do you measure a successful school?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 1440 hrs
That is a whole different convo. And it really doesn’t matter anyways ‘cause under your plan there is nothing-at-all I can do if I beleive a voucher-school is a failure, is there? And that is the main objection with this privatization plan: There is no recourse available if I (one of the folks paying for your child’s education) thinks the school is a failure.
You just said that you would gladly explain your stance once I defined the word “accountability”, and I have done so. Are you still confused by how that word is being used or are you ready to say why you feel I should not have some accountability for the tax dollars you are taking from me? You agreed with me that those other examples are a bad thing, so why is this one a good idea?
I’m also still curious to know how one of these for-profit schools will “lose me” if I am not satisfied with how they are using my money. Can you please explain that, ‘cause I honestly don’t see it.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 21, 2012 at 1517 hrs
You keep saying you want your form of accountability. Defining that standard is the logical next step. I gave you my standard.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 1534 hrs
Mike,
I can give you my answer to how I measure a successful school:
How well the student maximizes their God-given talent to the glory of God.
Thanks to our friends at the freedom from religion foundation, the public schools war on christian parents rather than embracing their Christian mission.
The choice argument is as simple as this.
Public schools reject the Christian mission, and sometimes, tell Christian students and parents they cannot talk about their primary mission in life.
http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF12H29.pdf
That kind of hostile teaching environment should be enough argument to allow vouchers.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 1632 hrs
Mike, I think I’ve made it clear what I mean. As I said before, here in Wisconsin we have local school boards that are elected by the public, so the schools that are using tax dollars are accountable to all the taxpayers rather than just the parents of school-age children. There is no accountability like that in this privatization proposal, and thus it is basically taxation without representation.
If that word is still tripping you up then instead simply explain exactly how these for-profit schools will be able to “lose” me (a tax payer with no school-age children) if I deem them to be a failure. You said that customers can do that, and if I’m paying for it then I’m a customer…so what exactly is my recourse if I am unhappy with what they are doing?
And Keven brings up a great point…lots of these schools will be preaching as well as teaching. Which is fine, if you want that for your kids then have at it. But is it really proper for you to use my tax dollars to help spread a religion I may disagree with? (Not Christianity specifically…speaking in general)
Posted by purplepenquin on December 21, 2012 at 1658 hrs
Purple,
If you are going to argue that you should not fund a religion you are against….then….
What about Christian parents forced to fund an educational institution that encourages kids to reject Christ.
You see…the public school religion of secular humanism is a religion I don’t want to fund.
Letting PARENTS have the choice makes the taxation for the secular humanist religion of the public schools more palatable…at least everyone has the choice to reject that religion at that point.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 21, 2012 at 1836 hrs
What about Christian parents forced to fund an educational institution that encourages kids to reject Christ
Yes, that is another example of why these vouchers are a bad idea. What is to stop Satanists from forming a school and using your tax dollars to teach their kids to drink blood and practice black magic?
If a public school tried to do that, we could at least try to vote out the local school board. What recourse is there if a for-profit school, which is using our tax-dollars, does such a thing?
Posted by purplepenquin on December 22, 2012 at 0008 hrs
What is to stop Satanists from forming a school and using your tax dollars to teach their kids to drink blood and practice black magic.
Could be possibly several things:
1.) School Board can still administer the vouchers and have a list where they can be used. If the Satanists tried to get approved (and did), time to change the school board.
2.) Local zoning code could zone out the school.
You worry about some private school leading kids into dangerous practices…we are already there with public schools. The “do what feels good” mentality as the only life concern permeates the curriculum already. No where is this social destruction more evident than MPS.
Combine that with the war on Christ to expel him at the schoolhouse gate is not to his glory.
If you read the Pew Forum report on religion and public life, there is little to stop public schools from putting blood drinking and black magic on the curriculum now (probably in the name of liberal multiculturalism religion):
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Issues/Church-State_Law/religion-public-schools.pdf
The war on religion at public schools is only against Christians. Islam is being embraced by the leftist multiculturalists.
It’s time to let Christians out with a voucher. If the leftist multiculturalists would not be so intolerant of Christians, this would not be a problem.
So letting parents and kids have a choice is a problem? Especially if the voucher is only 50% of what it costs to educate the kid in public school?
Seems like a win for the taxpayer all around!
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 0904 hrs
School Board can still administer the vouchers and have a list where they can be used.
That would address a lot of the concerns about this voucher program. But my understanding is that this current proposal does not have such a policy. Can anyone confirm or deny that?
So letting parents and kids have a choice is a problem?
Again, I need to clarify. As it was explained in message #40 there are lots of choices available for parents and nobody is trying to take any of those away. We ain’t talking about parents having choices available, but rather we’re talking about non-parents paying for your choices without having any accountability.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 22, 2012 at 1019 hrs
I cannot possibly imagine a reasonable person wanting to be represented by a few on a board rather than a thousand or so parents and citizens.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 1030 hrs
Mike, you still don’t understand what I’m trying to say: With your plan I get no representation at all! At least with a school board I get to vote for someone. Unless you can explain exactly how these voucher schools can “lose” me (a taxpayer with no school-age children) it is pretty obvious that you want me to just fork over my money and then STFU about it.
Seriously, it seems that you know, deep-down, that this proposal is just as wrong as those other billions of unaccountable tax-dollars you brought up earlier, but you’re willing to support it anyways ‘cause the handout is flowing towards you rather than away.
I don’t like to think that of anyone, and keep trying to give you the benefit of doubt, but the more you ignore my requests for clarification the more likely that seems.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 22, 2012 at 1122 hrs
For the sixth time… The potential of losing customers provides one hundred times the accountability of an elected board.
And if there is one thing that Act 10 brought to the forefront, it was that school boards were not representing taxpayers.
And, for the love of God, state your conflict of interest already!
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 1240 hrs
...but rather we’re talking about non-parents paying for your choices without having any accountability
What accountability would that be?
MPS has a 42 % HS graduation rate, and some of those graduates are illiterate when they are admitted to the UW-system!
Seems to me, the public school monopoly has no accountability today.
When public schools start to have accountability for the insane amount of money spent per student…until then, a voucher for 50% what it costs the public school to educate is accountability and a burden relief for taxpayers at the same time!
If we gave every student a voucher and public school only got funding from the voucher, we could cut school taxes in half and I bet we get better results with competition for the voucher.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 1344 hrs
Mr. Schueunemann—Letting PARENTS have the choice makes the taxation for the secular humanist religion of the public schools more palatable.
Parents DO have the choice, they have made it abundantly clear that they do not want religion, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, to be proselytized in their own public school district.
Mike—And if there is one thing that Act 10 brought to the forefront, it was that school boards were not representing taxpayers.Really, you want to be insulting to those community members who, by majority vote, put members in place to represent their interests over the years? There is accountability of those school board members, it’s called an election. If you are so down on school boards, perhaps you should run for a position or work to get rid of them if they have failed to look out for taxpayers.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 1410 hrs
Parents DO have the choice, they have made it abundantly clear that they do not want religion, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, to be proselytized in their own public school district.
Not according to Pew study I linked above.
According to that study parents feel the godless liberals from the freedom from religion foundation have gone too far. And that Pew study was from 5 years ago. Liberalism has doubled down on its religious speech assault since then.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 1419 hrs
“2.) Local zoning code could zone out the school.”
Kevin Scheunemann: Tireless crusader for freedom from government interference.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 1433 hrs
Major,
Not saying I advocate doing that.
However, municipality does have a say where schools can or cannot go.
Heck, AZ throws someone in jail for having bible study in a residential neighborhood!
The reality is: government assaults our right to assemble using zoning code.
If its going to be used against Christians, it certainly can be used against Satanists.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 1450 hrs
The potential of losing customers provides one hundred times the accountability of an elected board
For the love of God, explain how these schools will lose me as a customer already!
Like I’ve repeatedly said, I totally understand how that works for someone who has kids attending the school, but what I don’t understand is how these schools can “lose” any of us other customers that are simply paying for your kids. Can you please explain that?
And, for the love of God, state your conflict of interest already!
I keep telling you what my conflict is….since I’m writing the check I should have some say in how it is spent. If you don’t want me to have any input into the school you’re sending your kids to then don’t ask for me to pay for it. Why is that so complicated for you to understand?
Seriously, you need to get over this idea that your opinion on this matter is so good&pure; that the only folks who would oppose such a thing are public school teachers. And you really shouldn’t get bring up “conflict of interest” anyways, ‘cause yours would be the biggest one of all…if this is passed into law you plan on getting a voucher, no?
And if there is one thing that Act 10 brought to the forefront, it was that school boards were not representing taxpayers.
And no matter how much you wanna badmouth those elected boards, they still represent me far-far better than your proposed plan will. With them I at least get to vote for someone…under your plan I get nothing at all.
For real…check yourself: You’re saying I should just open up my wallet, hand over the money, and then STFU about it. I can totally understand why that would be great for those of you that are receiving the handout…but can you at least try to understand how that feels to those of us that are forking over the money? Would you still be in favor of this type of policy if you were one of the givers instead of a taker?
I’m trying to figure out if you truly don’t understand my objection or if ya simply don’t give a shit just so long as you get yours. Which is it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
What accountability would that be?
Asked and answered in message #40. I just would like some sort of voice in how ya’ll are gonna spend my money.
It sounds like ya’ll want society-as-a-whole to pay for your kids’ education, but you don’t want society-as-a-whole to have any input at all about how that is done. We’re supposed to just hand over our money and then sit down quietly while you do whatever with it.
Sorry, but you can’t have it both ways…gotta choose one or the other. If you won’t allow my input, then you don’t get my money.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 22, 2012 at 1547 hrs
Purplepenguin, why are you so afraid to declare your occupation?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 1622 hrs
Really Mike? Is that what this has come to? You can no longer defend this outrageous proposal to tap into my wallet while gagging my voice, so you’re back to these Oh yeah? What do you do for a living! taunts?
*sigh*
I am not now nor have I ever been employed as a school teacher, nor by a public school system. (NTTAWWT, of course)
For the last few years I’ve been working as a stagehand. We set up concerts, operas, plays, ballets, trade shows, conventions, corporate presentations, political events, movies, TV shows, and other assorted weirdness. Also work said shows and then tear ‘em down afterwards. Many different roles in many different venues.
The last (only?) time I worked in a public school was to teardown after a Presidential speech. Done a whole lot of other things to earn my wages throughout my life, but “teacher” has never been one. Closest would be the times I was a trainer…that happened at more than just a couple jobs.
Hope that clears up whatever question you had in mind about a conflict of interest, and since you mentioned it perhaps you can answer this question about your own conflict of interest: If passed into law, exactly how many of these vouchers are you personally planning on getting?
Actually…there ain’t no need to answer that, ‘cause it really doesn’t matter. We just have a difference of opinion and it is pretty clear where we each stand. You strongly support this program which re-distributes wealth to a select group of people without giving any voice to the folks who are actually funding it, while I think think that is a piss-poor way to spend tax-payers money. Our country needs MORE accountability for public funds, not less!
I reckon there is really nothing else to say on the subject ‘cause we ain’t really disputing any facts, but rather this discussion is now just about our differing opinions on how a gov’t should handle tax-payer dollars.
Thanks for sharing your point-of-view…for real…it has been extremely insightful and helpful.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 22, 2012 at 1731 hrs
Purple,
We give people tax credits and rebates based on the payments of others. Are you saying that you should be able to say where they spend those dollars? To me this is no different than people who receive an earned income tax credit or child care credit. They have a right to spend those dollars at a private school or even donate them to there local church. You seem to be saying that you should have a say in where those dollars go.
Tad
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 22, 2012 at 2011 hrs
Tad,
The reason we aren’t just gonna cut a check to the parents and let them do whatever they want with it is because that money is earmarked for educating their children. Like I keep saying, if you don’t want me to have any say in what the school is doing with my money then pay for it by yourself.
This sense of entitlement some of ya’ll are showing is nauseating.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 26, 2012 at 1631 hrs
purple,
Allowing choice with the school tax dollars one pays in is a sense of entitlement?
42% HS graduation rate at MPS.
We need better accountability than just a one choice horse.
Let the bloated public school horse compete for dollars in the marketplace.
If public school is as good as claimed…why would public school supporters be afraid of a little competition?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 26, 2012 at 1639 hrs
Allowing choice with the school tax dollars one pays in is a sense of entitlement?
Nope, not at all. The sense of entitlement comes from demanding that public money be given to you while also insisting that the tax payers have no say in how that money is used.
As I said before I totally understand that it takes the whole village to raise your children and this is not about using my money to do so. Rather it is about how this voucher system takes away my vote in how our tax-dollars will be used to educate the children.
Thank you for letting me clarifying, ‘cause I really want to be clear about this: It ain’t about the taxation per se, but rather the lack of representation. Under this voucher proposal only the people receiving the benefits will have a say in how those funds are used while those who are actually paying for it are voiceless, and that ain’t right.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 27, 2012 at 1255 hrs
purple,
So one can have a say in what is done with tax money…so long as they are not Christian?
Christians are second class citizens, then?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 27, 2012 at 1311 hrs
Kevin,
I’m unaware of any public school districts in America that have made it illegal for Christians to cast a vote for their school board. However, under this voucher system a lot of people (many of them Christians) will have no vote how our money is spent to educate the children and thus…as you pointed out…will be akin to second class citizens.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 27, 2012 at 1326 hrs
Purple,
Christians have been viciously attacked and marginalized out of public schools. If you read this report, Christians are being persecuted in public schools:
http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF12H29.pdf
Both by the court system and the oppressive freedom from religion foundation. This oppressive public school culture cannot be reversed by simply electing an all Christian school board.
Those of us that want Christ at the center of curriculum deserve not to “double pay” for schooling.
To do otherwise, is overtly punishing those that want Christ at the center of the school curriculum.
I understand in the liberal lexicon it’s OK to oppress and marginalize Christians, but school vouchers is just a small piece of compassion that godless liberalism could show to Christian parents.
Don’t you want to be compassionate?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 27, 2012 at 1440 hrs
This sense of entitlement some of ya’ll are showing is nauseating.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 26, 2012 at 1631 hrs
It’s really cute, but per our state constitution, education is an entitlement.
And, for the seventh time .... if you truly believe that a board of seven or nine people (elected or unelected) represent the people in their district better than, say, 10,000 parents… you have a serious fundamental lack of understanding of representation.
And, then, this gem….
For the love of God, explain how these schools will lose me as a customer already!
Like I’ve repeatedly said, I totally understand how that works for someone who has kids attending the school, but what I don’t understand is how these schools can “lose” any of us other customers that are simply paying for your kids. Can you please explain that?
Posted by purplepenquin on December 22, 2012 at 1547 hrs
Such a non-sequitor…. If a parent chooses to take their kid out of a public school, does their $$$ come along? Absolutely not. Otis Maley represents the interest of the public schools best when he tells an angry taxpayer that if he/she doesn’t like it, leave… He negelects to finish his sentence, that being to leave the checkbook….
If passed into law, exactly how many of these vouchers are you personally planning on getting?
Between my full time job, my rental properties, and the taxes paid by the company I own…. I am a maker, not a taker. My concern is not about my children. It’s about those kids at MPS that need a better opportunity. I feel we have an obligation to these kids above the entitled ‘public servants’.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 27, 2012 at 1557 hrs
And, for the seventh time .... if you truly believe that a board of seven or nine people (elected or unelected) represent the people in their district better than, say, 10,000 parents… you have a serious fundamental lack of understanding of representation.
Yes, I fundamentally can not understand how I get any voice at all (let alone a bigger one than I currently have!) in your scenario. You keep repeating the same statement over & over & over & over & over & over & over again but you never explain it even once….as if it is something you read on a bumper sticker and then gave no further thought to.
Such a non-sequitor…
Uhm, you’re the one who first brought the concept up. You said that is how customers can hold failing schools accountable, but you refuse to explain how they will lose us customers who are paying for it but don’t have school-age children.
Again, I can’t help but wonder if you are simply parroting someone else’s words without knowing exactly what the statement actually means.
Well, either that or you just too scared to flat-out say “You’re right. I just want you to hand over your money and then STFU about it. You get NO vote in this, so deal with it”
So which is it?
It’s about those kids at MPS that need a better opportunity. I feel we have an obligation to these kids above the entitled ‘public servants’.
Like I keep saying, if you don’t want “public servants” involved then don’t take “public money”. Is that really too complicated for you to understand or are you just playing games?
And as I keep saying, my objections have nothing to do with “opportunity” at all. I agree with you that socialized education is a good idea, but I strongly disagree with your opinions in regards to the stewardship of the public funds that pay for it.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 27, 2012 at 1813 hrs
Kevin,
Part of living in a democracy means that our personal viewpoints don’t always win. It sucks some times, for sure, but that is the price we pay for freedom.
If you wish to not use the schools provided by the community, that’s fine…as I’ve said many times before I am strongly in favor of all kinds of alternatives such as private schools, homeschooling, etc…but you can’t demand that the community pays for your personal schools without giving all of the community (rather than just the select few who receive the public funding) a voice in how that money is handled.
That just ain’t right…if you want the public funding then the public gets a voice.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 27, 2012 at 1829 hrs
Part of living in a democracy means that our personal viewpoints don’t always win. It sucks some times, for sure, but that is the price we pay for freedom.
So choice plays no role? It is the role of government to destroy choice, rather than expand it?
I find it funny that we allow, as a society, the choice of food stamp recipients to buy soda, potato chips, and candy…but cannot allow one to choose a Christ centered education with a voucher.
If we buy your argument, that government’s job is to shove everyone into a “one size fits all” mold (you see how well that worked on school lunch this year), why do we allow that on food stamps?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 27, 2012 at 1943 hrs
Like I keep saying, if you don’t want “public servants” involved then don’t take “public money”. Is that really too complicated for you to understand or are you just playing games?
Posted by purplepenquin on December 27, 2012 at 1813 hrs
Ahhh… the Mark Maley… good bye, leave your checkbook by the door on your way out…
Yes, I fundamentally can not understand how I get any voice at all (let alone a bigger one than I currently have!) in your scenario. You keep repeating the same statement over & over & over & over & over & over & over again but you never explain it even once…
Never explained what? That I feel that I know better for my kids than a school board? And that I feel my neighbors know better for their kids than a school board? Or that the fear of losing a customer provides a hundred times the accountability of a school board?
You said that is how customers can hold failing schools accountable, but you refuse to explain how they will lose us customers who are paying for it but don’t have school-age children.
Public schools don’t lose customers. They lose students, but the taxpayers keep funding.
I get your argument….casting a ballot equals accountability or representation and allowing parents to choose for themselves does not provide accountability. It’s just fundamentally wrong.
But…. answer me this…what is this property tax burden (to the school district) for which your undies are bunched? $500? Do you actually own a home?
Do you feel equally represented by the technical college portion of your property tax bill?
Back to the question I asked earlier? What is your ultimate goal of education? I stated mine….
School must prepare my kids for certain aspects of adulthood; education being the primary. Being that my children spend roughly 1500 hours per year at school, I have an expectation that goes beyond books.
My expectation of the system, what I hold the system accountable, is providing the needs specific to parents wrt their children’s education, within reason.
Now…. what is your mission statement for education? And how is public school accomplishing this whereas private schools are not?
That’ll be really tough for you to answer.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 27, 2012 at 2025 hrs
So choice plays no role?
Again, you are not understanding my objections at all. We are both Pro-Choice on this issue. I am not in favor of requiring parents to send their children to a public school, so please stop saying I am against allowing a choice.
I find it funny that we allow, as a society, the choice of food stamp recipients to buy soda, potato chips, and candy
I find it funny that you are holding that up as an example to emulate rather than scorn. I beleive we should get rid of those abuses rather than add to ‘em.
And from what I understand the food-stamp program has far-more limitations on which merchants can accept those vouchers than the school voucher programs do. As rife as the food stamps are with fraud, these school vouchers have the potential to be even worse!
but cannot allow one to choose a Christ centered education with a voucher.
That’s right. You can’t use public tax dollars to proselytize your personal religious beleifs. Not just Christianity…any religion.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 27, 2012 at 2026 hrs
That’s right. You can’t use public tax dollars to proselytize your personal religious beleifs. Not just Christianity…any religion.
That’s a much deeper argument. Education was not a part of the federal government when the Constitution was written, and our state constitution has plenty of wiggle room.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 27, 2012 at 2029 hrs
Ahhh… the Mark Maley…
Is that something else you’ve seen on a bumper sticker? ‘cause like most of what else you’re saying, it doesn’t make any damn sense at all.
good bye, leave your checkbook by the door on your way out…
Yes, that is exactlywhat you are saying…not just to me but all the other childless taxpayers in the State. You just want us to hand over our money and then get the hell out of your way.
Thank you for finally admitting it.
Public schools don’t lose customers. They lose students, but the taxpayers keep funding.
Not sure how things are where you live, but here in Wisconsin public school funding is directly tied to enrollment.
But…. answer me this…
*sigh*
MORE personal questions? Yes, I own my home…and that really is enough of your tangents and nonsense. This discussion isn’t about what I do for a living or who owns a home or not (As if that is relevant at all…you REALLY wanna claim that renters don’t pay property taxes via their rent?! Pffft) or am I really a teacher or what?
This isn’t about any of that…it is about you demanding that the public, as a whole, pay to educate your children while you also demand that the public, as a whole, have no say at all in how that money is handled.
But now that you’ve admitted that is exactly what you are in favor of, I guess there ain’t much more to say about it….we just have very differing opinions about how taxpayer monies should be handled and that is all there is to it.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 27, 2012 at 2102 hrs
We are both Pro-Choice on this issue. I am not in favor of requiring parents to send their children to a public school, so please stop saying I am against allowing a choice.
If you take tax money, for the godless public school, from the Christian parents that could have been used to send their kid to a Christ centered school and they can no longer afford private school…haven’t you cold heartedly, executed, their ability to choose?
No compassion for making people poor with high taxes?
That’s right. You can’t use public tax dollars to proselytize your personal religious beleifs. Not just Christianity…any religion.
Great! When can we expel the religion of global warming, evolution and secular hedonism from public schools?
It seems those liberal religions are fully embraced, and welcomed with open arms, into public schools.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 28, 2012 at 0825 hrs
Just to clear it up Kevin: You want to take my money in order to pay someone to teach your child your personal religious beleifs.
That is why you are in favor of this voucher program, correct?
Posted by purplepenquin on December 29, 2012 at 0959 hrs
The religious instruction typically paid with private funds.
Why aren’t you answering my questions about the mission of schools? Is all that marijuana on your blog slowing your thought?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 29, 2012 at 1057 hrs
purple,
I want my kids to have an education at a school institution that is not hateful toward Christ. Public schools will treat Christ as something “verboten” and try to expunge him from everyday life.
(but when something bad happens, like in Newtown, CT, the rush to go to Christ and have community prayer seems to be just fine…why can’t we have this attitude in public schools everyday?)
Christians should not be marginalized as second class citizens with tax money…that is what is going on right now.
Until godless liberalism becomes tolerant of Christianity, it makes good sense to give Christians the choice to opt out of the intolerance.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 29, 2012 at 1140 hrs
Why aren’t you answering my questions about the mission of schools?
Because it doesn’t matter. You have made it perfectly clear that you only want my money and that I have no say at all with what is done with it…any opinions I have about the missions of a school are totally moot, ‘cause you have made my voice totally mute!!
Explain to me how, under your plan, I get some sort of vote about the schools that are taking my money and then I’ll be happy to share with ya what criteria I personally use to determine if a school is failing in their mission or not. But until that time, there ain’t no sense in me talking about it.
And no, simply repeating that the parents who get the handout will represent me better far-far better than the local school board does not qualify as “explaining”.
Is all that marijuana on your blog slowing your thought?
*sigh*
Keepin’ it as classy as you have been for the whole discussion, I see. It is really easy to make all kinds of personal comments when you’re hiding behind total anonymity, eh?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I want my kids to have an education at a school institution that is not hateful toward Christ.
That ain’t what you said earlier…unless you are claiming that anything that ain’t centered on Christ is akin to hatin’ him. Can you please clarify that.
And I’m also curious if you could expound a bit on your earlier comments about how you would handle other religions using taxpayer money for their schools. You said something about using zoning laws to get rid of ones folks may disapprove of. Are you suggesting that our gov’t should pick & choose which religions are acceptable and which are not?
it makes good sense to give Christians the choice to opt out of the intolerance.
Here in Wisconsin, nobody is required to send their child to a particular school. If you disagree with the teachings of a particular school then there are plenty of other options available.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 29, 2012 at 1248 hrs
No. You won’t answer my simple question because it debunks your entire phony argument.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 29, 2012 at 1328 hrs
You won’t answer my simple question because it debunks your entire phony argument
I have no idea what my “phony” argument is, but my actual one is that this voucher program uses public tax-dollars without giving the public tax-payers a voice in how they are used.
That has been my argument the whole time. And nothing you’ve said so far has been able to debunk it.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 29, 2012 at 2129 hrs
Your phony argument is that a board of seven or nine people represent a community better than ten thousand or so parents.
And if you are looking for a vote, for accountability, well you can look to the governor and the legislature as they manage the state funds, and they’d obviously manage voucher funds.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 30, 2012 at 1004 hrs
Your phony argument is that a board of seven or nine people represent a community better than ten thousand or so parents
I ain’t being phony about it one bit, I really can’t see how your plan provides better representation for me.
While I totally understand how only letting the folks who get the vouchers a vote seems like better representation to you (because you’re part of that select group), I really-truly do not understand how the people paying for it get any representation, let alone better representation.
And it looks like you don’t understand it either. You keep repeating the same thing over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over again, but you haven’t even once explained how those people will be representing me! When confronted with that simple question you have no answer at all, and instead you just repeat that under your plan I will getting better representation than I get now.
It is now even more obvious than before that you are simply repeating something that was told to you, and you’ve only memorized it without actually thinking about it. And even after all the time spent discussing it in this thread, you still haven’t given it any thought at all….
...or maybe you did think about it and can actually see my point, but since you stand to profit from this proposal you can’t bring yourself to publicly admit what a douchbag move this policy is towards the people paying for it. I reckon it could be that instead.
Either way, its pretty sad.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 30, 2012 at 1103 hrs
Purple,
Clarification you requested:
http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF12H29.pdf
Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.After reading the link above: are you saying Christians should have to endure the foolishness in the public school atmosphere of today?
Sounds pretty mean spirited not to allow the choice with vouchers.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 30, 2012 at 1453 hrs
Kevin, Christians have a choice to have their children in public school or private. Despite Mike’s repeated protestations without logic backing them up, Purplepenquin is right. School boards are elected by all the electorate to act as stewards of all the taxpayers’ money. 10,000 parents, or 1,000 or 100 do not represent all the electorate and their taxes.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 30, 2012 at 2202 hrs
Dave makes a good case for the root cause of so many problems with schools. For so many lefties, “protecting the electorate” (providing cover for public employees) takes precedence over the true goal of education, educating our kids.,
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 31, 2012 at 0114 hrs
Dave,
Purple fails to answer the question…if you tax Christians to the point where they can no longer afford Christ centered, private, schooling, have you destroyed their so called “choice”?
High taxes, especially school property taxes, makes choice an allusion…Neo. We are here because you think there is choice, when the problem is: we really have no choice with the current public school monopoly.
In other words, is taking essential resources from Christian parents for the godless public school, moral? Especially when those resources can be directed to Christ centered schooling?
When one is taxed, the hard work and effort of those taxes represent is no longer in control of the person who earned those taxes. School vouchers balances out the equation, an equation which is unbalanced toward a liberal war on Christ, free speech, a hostile anti-child teachers union(s), and general hostility toward Christians.
I’m shocked that you lack compassion in this instance to allow citizens to escape the liberal intolerance.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 31, 2012 at 0942 hrs
Dave,
Does the School Board have the power to implement a voucher program?
The answer is no. That is generally a function of the State, to legislate where vouchers are, and are not, allowed.
So again you point to local school boards and electorate, but there again, choice is an allusion, Neo.
If you were elected to any local office, you realize the State controls 95% of what you do…with the threat of force…if you fail to follow the dictates. Especially when it comes to costly Marxist environmental regulation.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 31, 2012 at 0955 hrs
Mike makes a good case for the root cause of what is wrong with America. For so many people, “getting $$$” (ie, these school vouchers) takes precedence over the true goals of democracy. In earlier messages he even mentions that other programs with a lack of accountability are bad things, but he finds this one acceptable ‘cause he is the one getting the handout. A hypocrite of the highest order, and an example of the behavior that is destroying our country.
And Keven, there are plenty of people….Christian and otherwise….who are able to afford the schooling they personally desire. If you are so broke that any/all options (including home schooling) are “destroyed” then you have issues way beyond this to worry about….‘cause we all pay taxes (In fact, since you are have children you are already being subsidized by people like me!) and we all ain’t as broke as you are.Perhaps you should seek some advice from this guy...he’ll help get your financial affairs in better shape, and the program is Biblically-based.
That aside, if you are going to demand that society pays for your children’s education then society is gonna demand that they get a voice in how that money is spent. It is a simple and fair concept….seems pretty mean-spirited to take away my vote while still demanding I pay.
Posted by purplepenquin on December 31, 2012 at 1002 hrs
if you tax Christians to the point where they can no longer afford Christ centered, private, schooling, have you destroyed their so called “choice”?
Lets see if I understand this:
Since I have to pay taxes to the state, I can’t afford a Cadillac car. Therefore, Gov. Walker and the GOP-controlled Legislative branch has destroyed my choice when it comes to buying a car.
hehPosted by purplepenquin on December 31, 2012 at 1011 hrs
Kevin, WOW, don’t know how to respond as almost all you say is ideological hyperbole. There is no war against Christianity in our schools. When I was a kid we had to say a prayer prior to our milk break. That ended thanks to a Supreme Court decision in 1963. That was, and is, appropriate as public schools are to be free from religious indoctrination. So in that sense schools should be “Godless”. For every prayer forced on students you are disenfranchising some child’s beliefs unless the child is attending a school where the parents understand that religious indoctrination will take place and approve and pay for it.
In that sense property taxes support Godless schools just as they support Godless roads and sewers, Godless zoning, etc. Our form of government is a democratic republic, not a theocracy.
If government decides that supporting parochial schools with taxpayer money is appropriate then it should do so with additional taxes rather than bleeding dry the public schools. Destroying public schools while claiming that you are just forcing them to compete…to produce will ultimately result in a state, similar to Louisiana, where the good schools are the parochial schools and only the poorest send their children to public schools.
If you insist on giving government funds to the parochial schools, at least hold them to the same standards as the public schools. Require testing, require they accept all students regardless of disability, require that teachers are subject to the same teacher effectiveness evaluation model and impose the same remedial sanctions to under performing schools as called for with public schools. At least then you are applying the same standard to all who expect to receive money from all taxpayers. Right now most parochial schools are performing on a par with, or below, public schools even though generally they do not deal with students with special needs as the public schools do.
A strong public education for all has been a strong component in the growth and expansion of the middle class in the past. Choking off the public schools can certainly be done. However, doing so will just be one more nail in the coffin of the middle class.
“Marxist environmental regulation”?!? Yeah right, put in place by the big Marxist, Comrade Richard Nixon! Give me a break!
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 31, 2012 at 1040 hrs
“Since I have to pay taxes to the state, I can’t afford a Cadillac car. Therefore, Gov. Walker and the GOP-controlled Legislative branch has destroyed my choice when it comes to buying a car.”
Pssst, hey Kevin, try the ‘using the Alinskyite tactics of leftist religions against themselves’ line, that’s always a hoot.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on December 31, 2012 at 1338 hrs
Purple,
I’m thinking of others, who have lost their job, or are underemployed, etc. The least of these.
Also, we are talking about the ability to exercise one’s religion and instill those values to children, not a car. There is a difference. As you can see from Psalm 14:1, and the Family Research report, it’s clear public schools reject Christ.
For those that think public schools don’t have religion, Glenn Grothman released this this A.M.:
The Holiday That Wasn’t
“Kwanzaa comes once a year, but at Falk Elementary School [a Madison public school] it’s a part of the lesson plan almost every day.”……’ Each month teachers emphasize one of the principles, which were developed as part of the first Kwanzaa celebration in 1966.”
For your edification, I will offer in this update a little background on the nefarious origin of a practice which is gaining ground in American schools and in American culture.
_____________________________________
Why are hard-core left wingers still trying to talk about Kwanzaa - the supposed African-American holiday celebration between Christmas and New Years?
As has been well publicized, Kwanzaa is not some African or African-American tradition. It was invented in 1966 by Ron Karenga, a 1960s radical leader and founder of something called the “US Organization”. This group, often referred to as the “United Slaves” is even more radical than the Black Panthers. The United Slaves killed two Black Panther members and Karenga himself wound up going to prison due to assaulting some of his own members. Karenga was a racist and didn’t like the idea that Christ died for all of our sins, so he felt blacks should have their own holiday - hence, Kwanzaa.
Of course, almost no black people today care about Kwanzaa - just white left-wingers who try to shove this down black people’s throats in an effort to divide Americans. Irresponsible public school districts in Green Bay and Madison (and who knows how many others) try to tell a new generation that blacks have a separate holiday than Christians. Waring Fincke, left-wing West Bend lawyer and vice chair of the Washington County Democratic Party, encouraged people to learn more about Kwanzaa in a column in July. Fortunately, almost all black people ignore Waring Fincke and his ilk and the efforts to divide Americans.
But why do they do it? They don’t like America and seek to destroy it by pretending that its values as expressed in the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution, don’t apply to everyone. Mainstream Americans must be more outspoken on this issue. It’s time it’s slapped down once and for all. With tens of millions of honorable black Americans in our country’s past, we should not let a violent nut like Karenga speak for them. (By the way, after getting out of prison he was hired as a professor at California State Long Beach - when are we going to stop funding left wing nuts at our public universities?) The churches ought to be particularly appalled since Karenga thought Christmas was a white religion and was trying to draw black people from it. Be on the lookout if a K-12 or college teacher tries to tell your children or grandchildren it’s a real holiday.
I have provided a link to the force-fed “Culturally Relevant Practices” curriculum in Madison area elementary schools in which Kwanzaa is a highlight.
Our kids should be subjected to this cold, empty, public school religion?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 01, 2013 at 0842 hrs
you insist on giving government funds to the parochial schools, at least hold them to the same standards as the public schools. Require testing, require they accept all students regardless of disability, require that teachers are subject to the same teacher effectiveness evaluation model and impose the same remedial sanctions to under performing schools as called for with public schools. At least then you are applying the same standard to all who expect to receive money from all taxpayers. Right now most parochial schools are performing on a par with, or below, public schools even though generally they do not deal with students with special needs as the public schools do.
Dave,
Why do you want to drag parochial schools down to the level of public schools.
In Kewaskum, the 2 parochial schools do the standardized testing currently required by the state the public schools take and the kids far outperform the Kewaskum public school system.
So you statement implies we should drag down excellent private schools and there are no standards.
You couldn’t be more wrong.
It is not moral to drag private schools down to the performance of public schools to make public schools look better.
All should excel. Not be dragged down as you imply.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 01, 2013 at 0848 hrs
“Marxist environmental regulation”?!? Yeah right, put in place by the big Marxist, Comrade Richard Nixon! Give me a break!
Dave,
The village of Kewaskum was inflicted with a 2.7 million mandate to move a pumphouse off a floodplain because of DNR. During that project we had an 11 inch rainstorm and a manhole was off and 7 times the daily amount of river ran through our sewer plant, forcing us to “dump” 500,000 gallons of river water. (A drop next to the billions of gallons MMSD pollutes the lake with everytime it sprinkles in Milwaukee)
As a result DNR forced a $8 million sewer plant on us. I voted against all of it. The new plant now processes less sewage than old plant because the DOUBLING of sewer rates that resulted to pay for environmental Marxism, the water consumption dropped.
Now, aside from the fact Democrat environmental regulation has assaulted the poor and middle class with unaffordable water and sewer rates now…
DNR is cranking down phosphorus emission from sewer plants to ridiculous levels. Our public works director estimates it will cost another $1 mil to upgrade our new sewer plant. Ohhh…and MMSD gets to operate under old phosphorus standard.
So we are forced to inflict pain on poor and middle class to clean water to ridiculous levels to Milwaukee river while river dumps into a lake MMSD dirties up with same level of phosphorus and poop!
Environmental Marxism at its worst. Water will be no cleaner, but families will not be able to afford water.
Get educated, you will realize your environmental Marxism hurts people.
I’m against hurting people.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 01, 2013 at 0859 hrs
This is why public schools needs choice:
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/5332.html
This quote right here is why public schools are only allowed to be the “lowest common denominator:
Silver, who is a devout Christian, was also told that if she needed to look at inspirational messages for her personal use she would have to “keep such material in a discreet folder” that only she would have access to. She was also instructed to never disclose the contents of the folder to parents or student.That’s right, public school kids can’t look at any “inspirational material”.
WOW.
We have to make sure the kids are de-motivated at all costs.
I laugh that liberals defend this kind of thing.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 13, 2013 at 1430 hrs
Total Entries: 21059
Total Comments: 146944
Most Recent Entry: 05/17/2013 05:57 am
Most Recent Comment on: 05/18/2013 05:31 am
Total Members: 9751
Total Logged in members: 0
Total guests: 30
Total anonymous users: 0
Most Recent Visitor on: 05/25/2013 02:16 am
The most visitors ever was 663 on 09/02/2012 05:13 pm
Protected and licensed under a Creative Commons License (some rights reserved).