Exodus
Maybe this will help drive down housing prices 
Returning to past trends, more people moved out of Wisconsin in 2007 than moved in, according to a new report from Atlas Van Lines.
The outbound migration comes after two years when residents moving out of the state balanced those moving into Wisconsin. Between 1997 and 2004, Wisconsin moves showed an outbound trend with the exception of 2003, when inbound movers balanced those moving out.
The Atlas Van Lines’ 2007 Migration Patterns study also showed that Midwest states have been losing residents at a faster rate, a trend the moving company blames on job losses.
It’s a good thing that Doyle is standing at the prison door saying “let my people go.”
What the hell does that mean?
Posted by scott on January 05, 2008 at 1055 hrs
What part of “People are voting with their feet.” don’t you understand, Scott?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 1157 hrs
I wish someone would explain the prison statement, that’s all. Anyone?
Posted by scott on January 05, 2008 at 1158 hrs
Count myself as one of those moved out. Taxes was the main reason- I bring home about $1000 a month more here in Nevada than in WI, with about the same base pay. The ex and I are both professionals and so WI. lost 2 taxpayers. the guy who moved into to replace us had to file for bankruptcy.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 1200 hrs
Scott,
It was an oblique reference to the fact that while Wisconsin is losing people, jobs, etc., Doyle’s big bugaboo of late is to launch a commission to figure out how to keep more black folks from being imprisoned. Priorities, etc. The “set my people free” is a Biblical reference related to the title of the post. See how that all ties together?
Posted by Owen on January 05, 2008 at 1211 hrs
According to the article, this is a midwest problem not a Wisconsin problem. Looks more like a regional demographic shift rather than a “tax problem” for Wisconsin.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 1216 hrs
It is a Midwest problem, but the Midwest as a whole also has higher taxes, etc. than the states that are gaining population. Perhaps if a state like Wisconsin would become an “Arizona of the Midwest,” then the trend for Wisconsin could be reversed.
But no… the political leaders in Wisconsin prefer to keep comparing themselves to other failing states and say, “hey, we’re not that bad!”
Posted by Owen on January 05, 2008 at 1219 hrs
Owen,
Now if it’s residents moving in to Wisconsin you want I think you know what we need. It’s State run FREE health care. Once we have that we will be flooded with everyone in the Midwest and further out who have expensive illness and little education and job skills. Sure I could get education and training to get a good job to pay for my own health insurance, but why do that if someone else would pay for it.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 1345 hrs
Perhaps if a state like Wisconsin would become an “Arizona of the Midwest,” then the trend for Wisconsin could be reversed.
Great Idea!
Let’s start with public campaign financing.
And I can’t wait to spend $500-$1K to register/license a car again.
And pay sales taxes on my rental income every month.
Don’t get me wrong AZ is a nice place to live, but day in day out overall costs aren’t that much different.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 1511 hrs
pjr makes a great point. When people compare WI to other states purely on Property taxes or any other individual point they miss the big picture. It costs a certain amount to provide all of the services people want. If you don’t pay for it one place you will pay for it somewhere else. I go back to my friend who pays $600/year/kid for bussing in MN. That’s $3000/year for him. That makes his taxes and my taxes pretty equal on similar size houses. It all has to be paid for somehow.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 1523 hrs
Great Idea!
Let’s start with public campaign financing.
And I can’t wait to spend $500-$1K to register/license a car again.
I don’t think it would cost that much. Especially if we compel television and radio stations to carry a certain number of hours of political campaign commercials for free, as a condition of their license. As you know, the single largest expense in any national campaign is television time.
Posted by scott on January 05, 2008 at 1608 hrs
I don’t think it would cost that much.
You are right scott, it would not.
The quip was meant to be a sarcastic response to Owen’s AZ of the midwest remark.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 1659 hrs
You’re right. Wisconsin should continue to tax and spend as much as possible while ignoring any economic impacts of our public policy. It’s been helping Wisconsin’s economy thrive so far, right?
Posted by Owen on January 05, 2008 at 1740 hrs
Wisconsin should continue to tax and spend as much as possible while ignoring any economic impacts of our public policy.
Who stated that?
You made the comparison to AZ. I lived there for quite awhile and still pay taxes there.
There is a major difference in the use of the property tax as a revenue source but believe me AZ makes up for it in other respects.
The bottom line is not that much different.
Perhaps you would like to offer another state for WI to emulate?
Doyle’s big bugaboo of late is to launch a commission to figure out how to keep more black folks from being imprisoned.
I don’t know the particulars of this ““bugaboo”, but if we can maintain public safety and reduce incarceration rates then we can save some money.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 1903 hrs
“Especially if we compel television and radio stations to carry a certain number of hours of political campaign commercials for free”
Compel, Scott?
Free, Scott?
Here you are takling about the activities of private business being directed by the state. That was one of the key features of fascism.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 1916 hrs
Yes, compel. I don’t think requiring something in the public interest like free campaign ad spots is in the neighborhood of fascism. Perhaps you take the same view of those beeping storm warnings or public service announcements.
Stop overreacting.
Posted by scott on January 05, 2008 at 1933 hrs
There is a major difference in the use of the property tax as a revenue source but believe me AZ makes up for it in other respects.
The bottom line is not that much different.
The rankings would beg to differ. However, when a public revenue system is more reliant on fees, one’s lifestyle choices can have a dramatic impact on one’s government burden. I’ll take you at your word that your bottom line isn’t that much different.
My personal experience comes from living in Texas, where my total burden (taxes and fees) was far less than they are in Wisconsin.
I don’t know the particulars of this ““bugaboo”, but if we can maintain public safety and reduce incarceration rates then we can save some money.
I would agree, but that’s not what Doyle’s commission is tasked with doing. It’s tasked with finding ways to make incarceration rates equal for each races. Doyle is concerned that more black folks are incarcerated in Wisconsin than white folks (as a percentage of racial population).
Posted by Owen on January 05, 2008 at 2018 hrs
When people compare WI to other states purely on Property taxes or any other individual point they miss the big picture. It costs a certain amount to provide all of the services people want. If you don’t pay for it one place you will pay for it somewhere else. I go back to my friend who pays $600/year/kid for bussing in MN.
Uhhhh, yeah, last time I checked, I could drop my kids off at school, but I certainly can’t opt out of my property taxes. Ummm, for $3k a year, I would even make the kids walk to school… uphill both ways in 10’ of snow with no shoes.
I don’t think requiring something in the public interest like free campaign ad spots is in the neighborhood of fascism.
That’s exactly what it is Scott…. EXACTLY.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 2018 hrs
Well Jason that is not always possible for everyone. My particular friend and his wife need to be at work before the kids leave for school. So, they need to use the bus. Here’s another example. I have relatives in Iowa. We went to visit and they live in the country. We spent a full third of our time on gravel roads. I haven’t seen a main road county, town or otherwise in the state of Wisconsin for 20 years. Their taxes are lower, but they don’t spend the money on their infrastructure the way we do in WI. Like I said the money for what people want has to come from somewhere. In WI we choose to use property tax dollars to cover most of these costs.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 2032 hrs
According to the article, this is a midwest problem not a Wisconsin problem. Looks more like a regional demographic shift rather than a “tax problem” for Wisconsin.
Perhaps…
Then again… I remember campaign promises… Weren’t we promised jobs?
Maybe next time some dumb ass politician starts barking out campaign promises someone will hold them acountable
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 2142 hrs
Then again… I remember campaign promises… Weren’t we promised jobs?
And jobs we will get.
Road building and other state supported infrastructure construction jobs. Correctional and law enforcement jobs. Uline and other corporate welfare jobs. I am sure there are other categories that just don’t come to mind right now.
What kind of jobs were you expecting xxp?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 05, 2008 at 2258 hrs
So scott what will you do if one of the tv stations refuses to be compelled to give away air time?
I love how you on the left have no problem making people do something if you support it
What other private businesses would you like to compel to do things Scott?
I would love to compel the state to lower my tax bill but I know because of people like you Scott that will never happen.
Oh and Scott, you of all people are not allowed to tell anyone to not overreact, you are the poster child for overreacting
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 0008 hrs
What would I do if they refused? Revoke their license. Duh. Same thing we’d do if they refused to put on tests of the emergency broadcast system.
What other private businesses would you like to compel to do things Scott
Well, let’s see! I might go power-mad and compel meat packing companies to subject their products to federal inspection! Then—god help us all—I might require drug companies to subject their products to scientifically controlled tests for efficacy and safety before selling them! There’s no telling what I’ll do next!
Chris, you’re declaring outrageous the whole idea that the government can compel anyone to do anything. If that’s the idea upon which you object to my idea about TV campaign ads, you’ll also have to explain why you are also not in favor of: food safety regulations and inspections, toy safety regulations, drug testing, pollution regulations, OSHA, and a whole host of other unbelievable government intrusions on businesses.
Me, overreact? Sheeah. I think we should compel TV and radio licensees to carry a certain number of political campaign spots, you think we should go back to 1800. One of us is getting extreme, it’s true. But it ain’t me, pal.
Posted by scott on January 06, 2008 at 1021 hrs
There has been a strong move over the last 30 years from high tax states to low tax, southern states.
My folks left cause thy realized a 20% increase in spendable income by moving from here to Texas.
But what everyone forgets is that all of these taxes do not go to more and better benefits for the taxpayers but for the benefit of the tax eaters.
As long as we deccide to pay ou public employees, teachers etc more benefits salaries, vacations and pensions than we get we will be high taxed.
People who have moved to Arizona find little difference between the services but a lot of difference in the size and scope of government.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1133 hrs
Dohnal is correct and there is also a philosophical difference as well.
When Wisconsin faces a shortfall, they raise taxes. It’s in the politiican’s blood, Dem or GOP. When Nevada had a $250 million shortfall, they cut the budget by $250 million. Our governor said no new taxes and he is standing by that.
We provide the same services, and more in some areas. Our taxes and fees are just a little over Wisconsin and we have no state income tax.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1323 hrs
As usual in the ideological world of Dohnal, the info is suspect. According to this survey one your favorite demons Wisconsin teachers rank 27th in salaries. I can’t give the web site because for some odd reason it is banned. Imagine that.
Bob, I don’t think you’d be happy until all but the group that makes up your financial enablers are impoverished.
But of course am I crazy? Empirical data doesn’t count for crap on this site when it comes up against pleases stories.
You know there is this little thing called Google.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1332 hrs
One of us is getting extreme, it’s true. But it ain’t me, pal
Oh, earth to scott, your the epitomy of extreme. Government is your best friend and it can do everything. Stealing income from TV/radio stations- that is extreme
FYI, TV/radio stations are not required to run EBS. Some do, some don’t. Many times, listening to the radio, during the Wisconsin storms, I am listening to the rdio and had no clue that there was a tornado or severe thunder storm warning in the area.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1335 hrs
The difference between WI and NV in two words—
gambling revenue
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1357 hrs
Who cares how we rank for salaries for public employees, what counts is what we are paying for public employees in salaries, benefits, vacations and pensions. What does the average taxpayer gets in the same areas.
That is all that counts. Why should taxpayers pay their employees more than they get?Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1405 hrs
You said salaries Bob, as in your typo riddled quote:
As long as we deccide to pay ou public employees, teachers etc more benefits salaries, vacations and pensions than we get we will be high taxed.
As for the benefits, I don’t know if they are out of line with surrounding state and but I am sure they are not.
In the business it’s called attraction and retention Bob.
In your mind so long as they are in unions they are vermin. In your ideological driven mind that’s the problem.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1413 hrs
When the libs can’t fight my logic they criticize my typing. Ouch.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1417 hrs
No Bob. That’s not the point. You wrote salaries.
You know this is like beating your head against the wall.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1421 hrs
Keith, Wisconsin can increae gaming revenue, by not giving sweetheart deals to Doyle’s best friend and lovers, the Indian Casinos. How about charging them the national average?
They also can open up private casinos as well.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1449 hrs
You’re not fooling many on that one Dan.
On my fathers soul. You seem to say anything thinking its going to win an argument. That comment about WWII over at Folkbum was a dozy.
Everyone knows that no one has gambling going on in any state on the scale that it is in Nevada. This is not even an argument.
For my money I’d rather have no gambling going on in this sate because no matter what deal Doyle strikes the revenue would be but a sliver. Another little feature created by Tommy that contributed to the sliding of Wisconsin.
The point comes to this. You can whine about taxes but when it comes to spending, Wisconsin is average. Up until now our fees were low. Our corporate taxes are the lowest in the nation and yet WMC isn’t happy. Money coming back to us from DC is low. On the other hand we probably pay way too much for road building and prisons.
The money has to come from somewhere.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1501 hrs
Keith, I totally agree withyou on the road building. You are totoally wrong about the casinos. I don’t expect Wisconsin to get the same kind of tax revenue as Nevada, but you cannot argue that Wisconsin cannot get millions more from the Indians? You cannot argue that if there were private casinos in the state, that there would be tax revenue. How about making slot machines in the bars legal? They do it now anyways, why not make that legal.
But no, instead of finding ways to cut and increase revenue, all you want to do is raise taxes and say it is ok.
We get 40 new people into Las Vegas and Clark county a day. (and that also takes into account the number that leave) How many new people are moving to Wisconsin a day? How many new taxpayers?
And Keith, casinos are big, but we also have factories, white collar and blue collar jobs here. We have big corportations reside here and more coming every week. We have big and small businesses. Heck, we even have a couple of farms in Las Vegas.
What is the difference- no income tax for indivduals and a right to work state for businesses.
So, Keith, spare me the bullcrap. If you don’t want any casinos, fine, but that argument has been lost for many years now. Cut the road building, I agree. Prisons, i’m not sure about. But think of creative solutions to solve the preoblems instead of lets raise taxes all the time. And if you do that, maybe Wisconsin will do better.
And you better do it quick. Around the Wisconsin Rapids area, they are closing 1 paper mill and going to lay off hundreds from others. It’s going to devestate. the area Why do you think they are leaving? The wonderful business climate in WI? The lower corportate tax in WI? The high price of union labor? I doubt it.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1547 hrs
Why is the reading comprehension so bad on this blog.
My point is that taxes are lower in Nevada because of revenue is lower from casino revenues.
Just to give you an idea, casino revenue (don’t know how much of that goes to the state) is $100 billion. Indian casino ACROSS THE US rake in a mere $25 billion.
By the way, the casinos in Las Vegas pay their workers good wages so you have bartenders and chambermaids owning houses. That would cork off Dohnal of course because only the wealthy are supposed to do well.
There is no way that Wisconsin would get comparable revenue from Indian casinos.
The point is, Wisconsin spending is not out of line. States get their money different ways. Nevada happens to have this pot o’ gold and that is why your taxes are lower.
Good for you.
But pretty so the inevitable water shortage that will be endemic in the West will catch up and wipe off a lot of smug smiles. As far as getting their hands on Great Lakes water after stealing our jobs, they can piss up a rope.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1705 hrs
Why would casino workers getting good wages cork off the conservatives, that is good. they do not work for the government. The point is very simple. 80% of our education, almost all government administration expenses goes to employees. Why shouild our employees get all of their pensions paid for by us when we have to pay for almost all of our 401ks?
That is elementary.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 06, 2008 at 1819 hrs
Dohnal said,
The point is very simple. 80% of our education, almost all government administration expenses goes to employees.
I think what you’re trying to say with this poorly structured sentence is that 80% of education spending goes to personnel costs.
If so, congratulations, you’ve noticed that in a service industry like education, labor is by far the largest cost.
Now, how about that issue you’ve been constantly ducking for a while now: Is Waukesha County’s equalized value really almost equal to Milwaukee County’s? TID in or out, makes no difference to me.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 07, 2008 at 2053 hrs
Don’t get the point about the 80%. *80% of a hospital’s costs are personnel. So what?
Rather than bitching about their pensions and the bulk of the population not looking forward to much of a retirement thanks to crackpot conservative ideas, how about not being a sheep and demand pensions for everyone else like in Europe.
All your rants do nothing to help the middle class like all conservative programs and only serve a minority that is already set.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 07, 2008 at 2115 hrs
Comparing the states of Nevada and Wisconsin is as useful as comparing Russia and Andorra.
Give me a break.
I don’t doubt that your state is more frugal and smart with its tax dollars than is ours - you’d be hard pressed to have worse fiscal management than the two parties and their useful idiots have foisted on us here over the years.
However, the states are also very different which allows for less need for expenditures there than here. For instance, 81 percent of Nevada is owned by the federal government. The feds own less than 6 percent of Wisconsin.
Even with the state buying up stewardship land, that means a lot fewer rural citizens and all the services they want and require (namely roads, which were all paved in this winterized state for the benefit of dairy farmers).
A rapidly growing population simply means all the people who will eventually demand and require all the services we have in Wisconsin haven’t started doing so yet.
I’m going to guess your state’s health care costs are far less than ours, which means your government employees cost less than ours for the same benefit; though again your state has probably made better decisions with regard to benefits than has ours.
As for the $250 million budget cut, I’m willing to bet there was a lot of gimmickry to it, there always is.
And I’m sure some of those cuts will end up having effects that cost more in the long term. I see you’re going to be letting 2 and a half times the number of inmates out on parole instead of building new prisons. We could save boatloads of quan by letting 12 percent o the prisoners out too. Maybe just the first time pot offenders to start with. But whoa nelly you ought to hear the screeching here when that’s proposed. Funny how tax dollars should flow when someone has some weed that still makes them less dangerous than booze.
Go figure.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 07, 2008 at 2126 hrs
ATV, you make valid points, especaially about landownership and some not so valid points.
the $250 million in cuts are legitimate. No gimmicks. they will raise some tuition but that’s about it. They won’t fill open positions. Will it hurt in the long run? i really don’t know.
But it is almost impossible to get welfare here and if you do get it, it’s not very much and not for a very long time.
Prisoners out of jail early. I’m not sure about that. but here, they don’t have truthin sentencing. Many prisoners are giver terms like 10-15 years or 15 years to life. Maybe that is where that figure comes from.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on January 08, 2008 at 0348 hrs
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