Death on the High Seas
Argh.
More than 10 people have been killed after Israeli commandos stormed a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip, the Israeli army says.
Armed forces boarded the largest vessel overnight, clashing with some of the 500 people on board.
It happened about 40 miles (64 km) out to sea, in international waters.
Israel says its soldiers were shot at and attacked with weapons; the activists say Israeli troops came on board shooting.
The activists were attempting to defy a blockade imposed by Israel after the Islamist movement Hamas took power in Gaza in 2007.
There has been widespread condemnation of the violence, with several countries summoning the Israeli ambassadors serving there.
UN chief Ban Ki-moon said he was “shocked by reports of killings and injuries” and called for a “full investigation” into what happened.
Let’s be clear about what happened here. Israel began blockading Gaza when a terrorist organization took legal control of it in 2007. The reason is simple… Hamas likes to kill Jews and Israel wants to make sure they aren’t receiving weapons in those shipments. They are allowing through humanitarian aid.
This flotilla is intentionally trying to provoke an incident and they succeeded. International antisemites will wail and condemn, but let’s be real. What would you do? If Al Qaeda was running Nova Scotia, regularly sent rockets into Maine, and America had blockaded them, what would we do if a bunch of yahoos sailed in to break the blockade? I would hope we’d do the same thing and enforce our blockade in the interests of our national security.
Perhaps the best comment I’ve seen on this came from Melissa Clouthier on Twitter, who said, “If the Israelis wanted to avoid an outcry over the #flotilla, they should have had the North Koreans torpedo it.”
Indeed.
Then there’s this:
The incident comes a day before Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is due to meet US President Barack Obama in Washington after one of the most strained periods in US-Israeli relations in years.
Will our president back our long-term ally that is acting in the interests of its security or the terrorist Hamas and their bigoted provocateurs?
Except they were carrying cement not rockets.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2010 at 1048 hrs
Good thing the IDF had video rolling
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2010 at 1114 hrs
Doesn’t matter what they were carrying. If you decide to run a military blockade… especially in a very public fashion, you’d better be prepared for what you get. Seems that the “peaceful” blockade runners weren’t so peaceful after all. It’s sad that Israel was put in a position where they had to use force, but so be it. I’d think most people would expect to be shot if they threw a firebomb at an Israeli commando.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2010 at 1142 hrs
Cement to make bunkers no doubt…
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2010 at 1152 hrs
They were also carrying metal batons and knives which they used to attack the IDF soldiers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co&feature=youtu.be
Israel asked them to dock in the Israeli port of Ashdod so that they could examine the “aid” materials and then allow the “peace activists” to transport those materials by land to Gaza. If they were really humanitarians would they have been chanting for the killing of Jews?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded
Posted by Limor on May 31, 2010 at 1227 hrs
I feel as though any moment I will turn on my television or computer and find out global war has broken….other options are being exhausted….
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2010 at 1300 hrs
... but I thought a weak and conciliatory United States was supposed to ensure peace? We were the cause of all the strife in the world… weren’t we?
Seems like chaos fills in the gaps left by our foreign policy vacuum.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2010 at 1810 hrs
Will our president back our long-term ally that is acting in the interests of its security or the terrorist Hamas and their bigoted provocateurs?
It’s a shame that one even has to wonder and ask such a question. How soon we forget our friends.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2010 at 1829 hrs
I certainly believe that Israel has the right to defend themselves and to inspect this ship, but what did they think would happen after shooting up the ship? Do not be surprised if the world is outraged that you killed 9 people carrying cement, medical supplies, and food. Classic Israeli overreaction.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 0004 hrs
John’s right. This whole thing was a set-up by Palestinian sympathizers who knew the Israelis would likely overreact. The problem Israel has these days is that its “kill the ant with a sledgehammer” approach is costing it dearly in the area of public opinion.
In areas where the public lacks knowledge, he with the most compelling narrative and imagery usually wins the day (see the Obama/Clinton primary for a recent example). And certainly the Jews should know this - it was the same strategy they used to kill the British Mandate after World War II and get their shot at a permanent Jewish homeland. So long as Britain was controlling immigration policy to Palestine, the Jews were screwed - so they spun the story so it was all about the British keeping European Jews in refugee camps and denying them the right of return in order to protect British economic interests in the Middle East. It worked. Britain’s argument was complicated. The Jewish argument was not - and it came with more compelling imagery.
Now, Israel is allowing itself to get badly outmaneuvered in terms of global perception because it can’t resist the urge to throw a punch, even when in terms of its broader goals, restraint might be a more constructive approach. Nobody’s got Israel’s back on Gaza, and this isn’t going to win them any friends. Whether Israel likes it or not, it needs friends - and unfortunately, Israel often does things that make it a very difficult nation to hang out with on the global stage.
So instead of looking at the forest, Israel gets suckered by its own militant leadership into seeing one tree after another. Israel takes a steaming dump on its relationship with Turkey, the only quasi-positive existence it has with a Muslim nation. It’s going to lose the battle of public opinion because it lacks a narrative with which an ordinary person will sympathize. And worst of all, it’s going to cost them credibility when they criticize Iran - even though I think most of their arguments regarding Iran are on target. If everyone hates the messenger, it’s harder to take the message seriously.
If Israel doesn’t give a rip about what the world thinks, that’s fine. But by doing so, it should recognize that the world includes America too. If they want our support, they need to show some deference and remain committed to the bigger goals of peace and security in the Arab world. Going apeshit on a bunch of underarmed “humanitarians” is a terrible political move - no matter how right Israel thinks it is in principle.
Posted by Recess Supervisor on June 01, 2010 at 0320 hrs
So John and RS -
You think Israel should not have fired any shots as their troops were being thrown overboard, beaten with metal rods, stabbed, and having their guns stolen?
Should they have pulled out tea and crumpets?
Israel must keep the naval blockade intact to prevent the smuggling of large arms and missiles into Gaza as those don’t fit well thru the tunnels. True “humanitarian” aid is allowed thru via land after inspection for weapons.
This was an intentional provocation by Turkey and you two are providing to be useful idiots in your criticism.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 0551 hrs
Another blog mentions some pertinent facts.
The Israeli tactics, devised by the Prime Minister, were an exercise in futility. First off, the IDF carried PAINTBALL rifles and were told NOT to use their sidearms unless it was absolutely necessary; obviously, defense of one’s life is a “necessary” condition, and that’s how the 10 ‘peace’ activists died.
Secondly, the IDF Navy was NOT allowed to use the usual method of intercepting a ship, which includes shooting off the propeller and rudder. That meant that in order to stop the damn things, they had to take physical control.
Another case of politics screwing up military ops.
Surprise!
Posted by dad29 on June 01, 2010 at 0710 hrs
And once again America’s weakness in foreign policy has bred international agression.
At some point in time Little Barry needs to come to the realization that the entire existence of mankind is a struggle between good and evil. When the make-believe “leader of the free world” goes home to party, those with evil political and military agendas will go to work.
It will be as difficult for Mr. On-Day-One to put the military and diplomatic toothpaste back in the tube as it will be to put the oil back in the ocean floor.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 0758 hrs
And once again America’s weakness in foreign policy has bred international agression.
Just wondering…....please explain what the United States foreign policy should be and how that would make the world, and the United States, safer.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 0824 hrs
You think Israel should not have fired any shots as their troops were being thrown overboard, beaten with metal rods, stabbed, and having their guns stolen?
The only thing idiotic around here is you trying to extrapolate garbage like this from my argument. Seriously, are you that obtuse or do you just have an overwhelming need to argue with straw men instead of addressing what I actually said?
Of course I appreciate the concept of self-defense. The issue here isn’t what happened on the boat. The issue is that Israel should’ve had the political sense and wisdom to recognize they were being baited into overreacting, something Israel has long been known for. Israel should’ve let the boat go or as Dad29 mentioned, employed the usual and customary approach for dealing with the situation.
Diplomacy and foreign relations are like chess. Sometimes giving up a lesser piece is vital if one is to successfully execute a bigger strategy. In this case, Israel’s making a stink over defending a pawn (its politically failing blockade of Gaza) when it’s also trying to get the world to help it take out the king (Iran’s nuclear ambitions). But that’s been Israel’s problem for ages. Israel has no discipline when it comes to focusing on the bigger game. If America employed Israel’s approach, we’d still be fighting the Cold War right now.
What you are doing is exactly what Britain did post-WWII. You’re trying to defend the rational basis for a set of actions when I’m not even questioning the rational basis for the action. I understand Israel’s position perfectly well. What I’m saying is that the action is one big losing proposition for the Israelis in terms of their political goals in the region, which arguably are more important.
Israelis have built over 200 settlements on confiscated Palestinian land in the West Bank in defiance of the consensus view of international law. They’ve killed sixfold as many Palestinians in the last decade as Palestinians have killed Israelis, and twelve times as many children. Aggression by groups like Hamas gets lost in the discussion when Israel insists on such a belligerent and disproportionate course of action.
Israel’s leaders tried to be too cute by half and it’s going to get them killed once more in the court of public opinion. That will have far greater impact on Israel’s long-term goals than possibly letting a handful of guns into Gaza. And that’s saying something when you consider that nearly every major media outlet in America is owned or controlled by people who are predisposed to be sympathetic to the Israeli cause.
The biggest problem Israelis will have is if ordinary Americans start to perceive that Israel is as much an aggressor and an pain in the ass in the Middle East as groups like Hamas or Hezbollah. If Americans’ attitudes toward the Middle East begin to mirror more closely the views of the rest of the western world, Israel’s going to have a long, lonely road in front of it.
Israel’s the bratty little brother who picks stupid fights on the playground because it knows big brother will come in and get his back. But Israel then needs to be smart enough to not piss big brother off because his support isn’t unconditional. Big brother has interests on the playground too and if defending little brother becomes too much of a distraction or a hindrance to his own goals, then maybe little brother needs to take a couple of punches in the face from the other kids, just for his own good.
Posted by Recess Supervisor on June 01, 2010 at 1134 hrs
Using paintball guns to intercept a massive ship with 500 people aboard is “using a sledgehammer to kill an ant”? I mean, I guess if they had dropped a nuclear cruise missile on the ship you could say that, but pepper rounds in a paintball gun? Sheesh, that is a pretty messed up perspective….
Israel was enforcing a blockade. The flotilla’s intent was to draw a reaction from Israel, by all accounts I think that the reaction was reasonable. Nobody should have been killed, but the “peace” protesters resorted to violent confrontation. The 10 dead are on the hands of those aboard the flotilla, not the Israeli’s.
Going apeshit on a bunch of underarmed “humanitarians” is a terrible political move - no matter how right Israel thinks it is in principle.
Again, RS, “Going Apeshit”? ..... Paintball guns…... Wow, just wow.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 1136 hrs
For anyone to claim Israel has done anything other than show extreme restraint when dealing with that terrorist nutball group is laughable.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 1228 hrs
RS… Your comments here are the best, most balanced, and thoughtful I have read on the ‘net concerning this incident and the overall Israeli situation (even compared to well known left & right bloggers with millions of page views). You’ve won me. I was looking at it “tree by tree” until I read your analysis. Makes total sense now.
Thanks for helping to keep this blog on the thoughtful side. The level of discourse around here lately has been tragic. Nice to see someone out there can still apply sound critical thinking.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 1233 hrs
I think that Israel is more focused on trying to prevent bigger weapons from getting into Gaza via boat than they are the political ramifications.
Its easy for RS to pontificate about how they are the big-bad bullies when he is not the one actually in danger of being wiped off the map.
Even the Obama realized that this one is not the Israeli’s. btw - you may want to look at the bigger problem brewing right now. Like the Islamification of Turkey. Toto- they ain’t secular anymore.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 1619 hrs
I’m wondering if there is anything that Israel could do that would earn them criticism from the American right.
I sincerely doubt it.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 1657 hrs
I’m wondering if there is anything that could be done to Israel could do that would earn from the American left.
I sincerely doubt it.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 1751 hrs
You should remember that in terms of the map, Israel’s only on the map by the graces of the UN, a body whose very legitimacy conservatives relentlessly question, except apparently for when they agree with it. Israel’s history is one in which they have consistently taken more land than they were given and settled in areas that the international community has decided it’s not legal for them to settle in. For a bunch of victims, they sure are belligerent and antagonizing.
And remember that old image of the Israelis as victims and the Palestinians as aggressors? Have you noticed how quiet the Palestinians have been lately? 19 suicide bombings in ‘04, 9 in ‘05, but then just five over the next three years and not a single bombing in over two years? It’s not a coincidence. I think the Palestinians have figured out that by largely behaving themselves while Israel continues being its usual self, they’ve been able to spin that narrative 180 degrees. Without the constant missile fire and the suicide bombers, the Palestinians look peaceful while the Israelis do not. Memories are short and image matters.
I’m fully aware of the current state of matters in Turkey - which is why we need to be careful not to drive them towards the eager arms of their neighbors. Strategically, one could argue that a positive relationship with Turkey is worth pissing Israel off a little. Israel has nowhere to go strategically. If we came out and condemned their actions, what are they going to do? Cut off our hummus supplies? They antagonize the Arab community through disproportionate response and the Europeans have had enough of Israel’s constant whining about victimization when they are in fact the biggest aggressor in their immediate vicinity. Sure, they argue self-defense, but why shouldn’t there be some critical external evaluation of Israel’s response mechanism?
For Israel, I think the days where it gets to do whatever it wants and respond however it wants and never have to answer for it are numbered. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
Posted by Recess Supervisor on June 01, 2010 at 1805 hrs
Check your history and see how well the “Palestine"ans were treated under Egyptian rule.
The only reason that any in the Arab world give a rip about them now is because they are useful in the campaign to eliminate Israel.
Also remember that Israel completely signed on to the 2-state solution and gave up Gaza willingly. Then Hamas took power (not entirely peacefully either) Fatah was neutered and left to the West Bank and Hamas has been lobbing rockets ever since.
No humanitarian aid is denied to Gaza - over land.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 1808 hrs
I’m wondering if there is anything that could be done to Israel could do that would earn from the American left.
Earn respect from the left you mean? Yes, they could adopt an open borders policy and die at the hands of the Arabs, or they could convert to the only left approved religion… Islam.
You should remember that in terms of the map, Israel’s only on the map by the graces of the UN
The idea of a self governing Jewish homeland in Israel was officially initiated in the Balfour declaration during WW1. The land had belonged to the Turks previously, not to the Palestinians. After the Turks, the land was governed by the UK under a mandate from the League of Nations, again, not the Palestinians. The UN adopted a plan to partition the land into Arab areas and Jewish areas… a plan that the Jews adopted and the Arabs rejected. The Arabs opting instead to start a war to drive the hated Jews into the sea. They failed… and failed again in 1956, 1967, and 1973. Each time the state of Israel defeated the aggressors, they kept some of the captured lands as a buffer to avoid future attacks. The Jewish occupation of those lands is no different than the current Polish occupation of former pre-WW1 and WW2 German lands, or the similar French occupation of former German territory. If you start a war and lose it, there will be a price to pay.
For Israel, I think the days where it gets to do whatever it wants and respond however it wants and never have to answer for it are numbered.
...at least for the duration of Barack Obamas stay in the White House.
The mistake Israel made here was trying to please the US by attempting to stop those boats non-violently. Thugs only understand force (even thugs that cloak themselves falsely in the mantle of “peace activist”). The people on those ships were sent at the behest of the Turks… and they intended to violently repel the Israelis. The Israelis should have avoided the paint ball and rubber bullets approach… opting instead to render the ships dead in the water and then tow them to an Israeli port where the passengers could be arrested.
Every time you show your enemy weakness in the name of peace and appeasement, your enemy will gain ground on you. We see it in our current foreign policy debacles, and now Israel has fallen victim to the same process of diplomatic wimpification. Always treat your enemies as if they are dangerous… they are. The Arabs say “Be thine enemy an ant, see in him an elephant”. They are correct.
We agree on one thing RS… the Israelis were being baited by the “peace” boats. They failed the test, though I suspect that however much the anti-Israel movement on the left howls, those videos of the “Peace” activists throwing fire bombs and stabbing the Israeli soldiers will take much of the wind out of their false indignation.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 2109 hrs
Ironic that they happen to be wearing life vests and carrying clubs when the incident happened.
It’s my opinion that they wanted the Israelis to fire on the ship.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 2139 hrs
I’m wondering if there is anything that Israel could do that would earn them criticism from the American right.
I sincerely doubt it.
What is there to criticize? They were enforcing their blockade, as peaceably as I can imagine possible…. The people on the boat got violent. Period, the end. Now, if Israel had actually gone “apeshit” and blown up these vessels, I guess there’d be reason to be critical. They boarded a vessel violating their blockade…. WITH PAINTBALL GUNS…. for god’s sake would you people get some perspective?
For Israel, I think the days where it gets to do whatever it wants and respond however it wants and never have to answer for it are numbered. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
Do you over-react so emphatically to everything that happens in Israel? When Netanyahu flushes a floater do you envision it as traveling under ground through a secret pipe that filters into Yassir Arafat’s tomb, just to be disrespectful?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 2144 hrs
I’m fully aware of the current state of matters in Turkey - which is why we need to be careful not to drive them towards the eager arms of their neighbors.
They aren’t going to the arms of their neighbors. They are trying to become the Sunni head of the Caliphate.
They antagonize the Arab community through disproportionate response and the Europeans have had enough of Israel’s constant whining about victimization when they are in fact the biggest aggressor in their immediate vicinity.
You have got to be fucking kidding me. Iran threatens to wipe them off the map, Hamas and Hezbollah are chartered to basically kill them all. The Arabs have been waging war on them since the beginning of time. But the Israelis are the aggressors? The Arabs are antagonized because they exist and won’t be satisfied until the Jewish state and, most likely the Jewish people, no longer exist.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2010 at 2200 hrs
I wonder if there might be any of you on the Christian right who would actually admit feeling a bit glee in this escalation of this religious war in that it brings Armageddon one step closer.
Sincerely, I cannot figure out when the right took on this defender of Israel role. And how do we explain the vast majority of American Jews who vote D.
Posted by jimspice on June 01, 2010 at 2234 hrs
The Arabs are antagonized because they exist and won’t be satisfied until the Jewish state and, most likely the Jewish people, no longer exist.
Notwithstanding the fact that Arab != Muslim, that statement is just not true. Turkey has had a long peaceful history of interactions between Muslims and Jews. In Iran, the Jews are allocated a permanent seat in parliament, and in fact, the Iranian constitution states that Jews are equal to Muslims.IMO, the Israelis were baited into attacking the ship. It was obviously a propaganda operation, and the IDF was foolish for taking the bait.
On the other hand, anyone with a functional moral compass recognizes that the blockade is just a slow genocide.
In 2009, after the “war” which ended in mid January, only a handful of Israelis were injured by rocket attacks from Palestinians. On the other hand, the Palestinians in Gaza are unable to access medicine clean water or food, the Gaza economy has collapsed, and they are suffering from a collective punishment being carried out by an occupying power, in violation of the Geneva Conventions.
Just imagine if it were Iran or North Korea that had attacked a ship carrying humanitarian aid from the United States. Would your response be any different?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 0011 hrs
When Netanyahu flushes a floater do you envision it as traveling under ground through a secret pipe that filters into Yassir Arafat’s tomb, just to be disrespectful?
Don’t give them any ideas.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 0014 hrs
Sincerely, I cannot figure out when the right took on this defender of Israel role.
It’s not so much support for Israel as it is support for war.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 0016 hrs
Turkey has had a long peaceful history of interactions between Muslims and Jews.
You may want to look at current events in Turkey - the times, they are a-changin’
In Iran, the Jews are allocated a permanent seat in parliament, and in fact, the Iranian constitution states that Jews are equal to Muslims.
Yes - Iran - that bastion of human rights and tolerance for other religions. if you actually believe that happens in practice with their dear Leader spouting off how they should be eliminated, I got a lovely beach house in Oklahoma for you.
On the other hand, anyone with a functional moral compass recognizes that the blockade is just a slow genocide.
Humanitarian aid is allowed 100% over land after inspection for weapons. Try again.
ust imagine if it were Iran or North Korea that had attacked a ship carrying humanitarian aid from the United States.
Oh yeah - where is that UN condemnation for the sinking of the S. Korean ship again?
I wonder if there might be any of you on the Christian right who would actually admit feeling a bit glee in this escalation of this religious war in that it brings Armageddon one step closer.
You are condescending, ignorant, and downright nuts with that statement.
Sincerely, I cannot figure out when the right took on this defender of Israel role. And how do we explain the vast majority of American Jews who vote D.
I ask myself that how that cognitive dissonance occurs as well. But Obama is concerned he is losing the Jewish, he’s has an awful lot of outreach lately, and their communitiy is grumbling about him quite a bit - and not in a good way. The “D” dominance may be ending with this Administration.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 0624 hrs
Without the constant missile fire and the suicide bombers, the Palestinians look peaceful while the Israelis do not.
Just because the media here in the US chooses not to report on the rocket attacks by Palestinians that doesn’t mean they aren’t still happening frequently.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1048 hrs
Just because the media here in the US chooses not to report on the rocket attacks by Palestinians that doesn’t mean they aren’t still happening frequently.
It also doesn’t mean that they are still happening frequently.They aren’t though. If you were wondering.
The purpose of the blockade was to weaken Hamas. The effect has been to provide Hamas with a propaganda tool and an enemy that they can use to keep power.
And for those of you who insist on comparing Israel to other countries that are worse, you are simply proving my point. Saying “At least they aren’t as bad as Iran” doesn’t really give you the high moral ground. I’ll tell you what. When the US supports Iran financially and militarily like it does Israel, when Iran has near unanimous support from both sides of the isle politically like Israel does and when Iran has the support of the vast majority of leading pundits like Israel, then we can compare the two on an even basis.
As far as Obama’s support from the Jews in the US, it really seems like you are saying that they are too stupid to act in their own best interests. Just like every other identity group, they support the politicians they believe are acting in their best interests.
And for those of you who have been brainwashed into thinking that Obama and the Democrats are anti-Israel, I beg you to please provide ONE example of a policy or law that has been passed in the last 4 years that has been harmful to Israel. I’m not talking about tepid, cautious statements of mild disapproval, I’m talking about actual action. Has foreign aid funding been cut? Military aid? Any preferential treatment been taken away?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1158 hrs
There has definitely been a lot of talk of cutting aid to Israel, but that’s only been since Obama’s been in office.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1243 hrs
And for those of you who insist on comparing Israel to other countries that are worse, you are simply proving my point. Saying “At least they aren’t as bad as Iran” doesn’t really give you the high moral ground.
Actually, in this case, when we compare Hamas to Israel, it does.
As far as Obama’s support from the Jews in the US, it really seems like you are saying that they are too stupid to act in their own best interests.
Absolutely.
When the US supports Iran financially and militarily like it does Israel, when Iran has near unanimous support from both sides of the isle politically like Israel does and when Iran has the support of the vast majority of leading pundits like Israel, then we can compare the two on an even basis.
Strawman.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1257 hrs
They aren’t though. If you were wondering.
Did you really think I was just wondering before I posted that?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1310 hrs
Actually, in this case, when we compare Hamas to Israel, it does.
Yes, compared to Hamas, Israel does have the high ground (again, that’s really not saying much). So don’t you think it makes sense to stop this counter-productive blockade which only strengthens and enriches Hamas?
There has definitely been a lot of talk of cutting aid to Israel, but that’s only been since Obama’s been in office
Setting aside the fact that talk is not action, perhaps you could supply some reference to all of this talk about cutting aid to Israel. Because it hasn’t happened, and, as long as former IDF member and proud Jew Rahm Emmanuel is Obama’s COS, I really don’t see it happening.
Did you really think I was just wondering before I posted that?
So one person has died from rocket attacks from rocket attacks out of Gaza this year. Now, since you’re so industrious, maybe you could find out how many Palestinians have died from the blockade so far this year.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1359 hrs
And once again America’s weakness in foreign policy has bred international agression.
Just wondering…....please explain what the United States foreign policy should be and how that would make the world, and the United States, safer.
Posted by Pat on June 01, 2010 at 0824 hrs
You should read this:
Weakness begets aggression. On Middle East policy, our president is the epitome of weakness.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1405 hrs
So, djheru .... what is your take on the Jihad?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1415 hrs
So one person has died from rocket attacks from rocket attacks out of Gaza this year. Now, since you’re so industrious, maybe you could find out how many Palestinians have died from the blockade so far this year.
Oh, they need an equal response because the Palestinians use rocks and crappy rockets?
Good thing the rockets are poor quality, or do you think they were just aiming to miss killing people?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1447 hrs
djheru and RS…
The rocket attacks have continued all along. And regularly.
Here is the list from 2010 alone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2010Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Israel is without some level of criticism here. But my criticisms of them are concerned with them being disingenuous and inconsistent about their intent with the Palestinians, and in particular with Gaza. If Israel believes that peace efforts are 100% futile then they should come out and say so. Admit that they are initiating an apartheid state because all other options have been tried, and all have failed. For the security of the Jews “we need to lock in the Palestinians and respond ten-fold every time they commit a violent act.” If they just came right out and said that, there would be no guessing about the course ahead.
But instead, Israel dances this line where they claim to be interested in pursuing peace, but then continue to expand settlements and make serious blunders in the balance between security and international political support. If they truly believe that peace can be achieved, then they need international support. And in order to earn that, they’ve got to suck it up even more, pull back out of settlements, stop the expansions, and then demand accountability from the U.N. and other Muslim nations when Hamas continues to launch rockets. Yes, it will suck. Yes, the rockets will continue. Yes, many assholes like Ahmadinejad will claim their side “won”. But in 10-15 years, consistency in the peace approach will win out. The course the Israeli’s are on now is not one that will be sustainable in the long run. Something needs to change.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1448 hrs
Now, since you’re so industrious, maybe you could find out how many Palestinians have died from the blockade so far this year.
Since no aid is denied to Gaza, that would be a big fat zero on how many have died from the blockade. All land shipments are allowed after inspection for weapons. Ships just need to dock in Israel, get inspected and then shipped over land.
btw - you do understand that Egypt wants the blockade too right?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1540 hrs
Here’s a report from a Dane who went to Gaza… yah - lots of shortages, not.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1700 hrs
And once again America’s weakness in foreign policy has bred international agression.
Just wondering…....please explain what the United States foreign policy should be and how that would make the world, and the United States, safer.
Posted by Pat on June 01, 2010 at 0824 hrs
You should read this:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/anti_israel_sh arks_sniff_weakness_n5AbqK6bk6NHcy6qEWK5jJ#ixzz0phPKSy8o
Weakness begets aggression. On Middle East policy, our president is the epitome of weakness.
Ok, I read the article. And so?? That had absolutely nothing to do with my question. My question was/is - what should the United States foreign policy be to make the world and ourselves safe.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1801 hrs
You need to educate yourself about the actual situation in Gaza. I know several people with family there. Only the very wealthy can afford to buy food. Israel is stopping shipments of antibiotics. They are pumping their sewage into Gaza. There is often no clean water to drink or electricity. Israel is not permitting concrete to be shipped in, so Palestinians are not able to repair the damage from Israel’s war crimes last year.
When you compare the rocket attacks, which have killed less than a dozen people since the end of the war last year to the hundreds of people killed by Israeli forces, including pregnant women waiving white flags, the 40 children killed when Israel bombed a UN school, their use of white phosphorous bombs (supplied by the US) in densely populated areas on hospitals, schools and a humanitarian aid warehouse, and many more atrocities, anybody with a functioning moral compass can see who is doing the greater evil.
Israel kills over 10 times as many children as Palestine, and as reported in haaretz, Rabbis have sanctioned the murder of gentile children as acceptable.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1928 hrs
The rocket attacks have continued all along. And regularly.
Here is the list from 2010 alone
And look at the casualties. Less than a dozen killed since Israel ended their offensive in january 2009. How many Palestinians have been killed by Israel during that time?Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1945 hrs
You need to educate yourself about the actual situation in Gaza.
You mean like these tidbits?
Maybe some of the shortages are being caused by Hamas itself. What better way to keep the population discontent but to keep all the goodies away from them and then blame Israel. I mean, its not like other terrorist leaders like Sadam Hussein, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-Il, etc. have ever done that right?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1945 hrs
Forgot to add about the aid from the ships that Hamas is now refusing.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1946 hrs
Oh, they need an equal response because the Palestinians use rocks and crappy rockets?
Not equal, just proportionate. Or perhaps you think that Israel is justified in bombing occupied schools and hospitals as a response to rocket attacks that have killed less than a dozen people in the last year and a half?If you are at a bar and someone spits in your face, you are not justified in shooting him dead.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1948 hrs
Maybe if Hamas stopped using civilians as human shields?
But please - continue to absolve Hamas of ANY responsibility whatsoever.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 1954 hrs
And look at the casualties. Less than a dozen killed since Israel ended their offensive in january 2009. How many Palestinians have been killed by Israel during that time?
As General Patton said, “No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country”. The fact that Israel has been successful in minimizing the attacks of it’s enemy should in no way imply that they now need to go easy on them.
If you are at a bar and someone spits in your face, you are not justified in shooting him dead.
i imagine all the Israelis who have died for no reason other than that they were Jews might disagree with your comparison to being spit on. If someone at a bar stuck a knife in your girlfriends throat, would you refrain from shooting him, and instead engage him in a knife fight? I doubt it.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 2007 hrs
What better way to keep the population discontent but to keep all the goodies away from them and then blame Israel.
Exactly, and Israel is playing right along.Israels actions strengthen Hamas. You seem bound and determined to avoid addressing that issue.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 2007 hrs
i imagine all the Israelis who have died for no reason other than that they were Jews might disagree with your comparison to being spit on.
And the many, many more Palestinians who have died might object to your characterization of the ongoing extermination of Palestinians as self defense.Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 2009 hrs
I like this quote from noted anti-semite Amos Oz
Israel’s siege of the Gaza Strip and Monday’s violent interception of civilian vessels carrying humanitarian aid there are the rank products of this mantra that what can’t be done by force can be done with even greater force. This view originates in the mistaken assumption that Hamas’s control of Gaza can be ended by force of arms or, in more general terms, that the Palestinian problem can be crushed instead of solved.
But Hamas is not just a terrorist organization. Hamas is an idea, a desperate and fanatical idea that grew out of the desolation and frustration of many Palestinians. No idea has ever been defeated by force — not by siege, not by bombardment, not by being flattened with tank treads and not by marine commandos. To defeat an idea, you have to offer a better idea, a more attractive and acceptable one.
Thus, the only way for Israel to edge out Hamas would be to quickly reach an agreement with the Palestinians on the establishment of an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as defined by the 1967 borders, with its capital in East Jerusalem. Israel has to sign a peace agreement with President Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah government in the West Bank — and by doing so, reduce the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to a conflict between Israel and the Gaza Strip. That latter conflict, in turn, can be resolved only by negotiating with Hamas or, more reasonably, by the integration of Fatah with Hamas.
Even if Israel seizes 100 more ships on their way to Gaza, even if Israel sends in troops to occupy the Gaza Strip 100 more times, no matter how often Israel deploys its military, police and covert power, force cannot solve the problem that we are not alone in this land, and the Palestinians are not alone in this land. We are not alone in Jerusalem and the Palestinians are not alone in Jerusalem. Until Israelis and Palestinians recognize the logical consequences of this simple fact, we will all live in a permanent state of siege — Gaza under an Israeli siege, Israel under an international and Arab siege.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 2309 hrs
Thus, the only way for Israel to edge out Hamas would be to quickly reach an agreement with the Palestinians on the establishment of an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as defined by the 1967 borders,
I agree. But the 1967 borders would be a huge sticking point. Israel has so many settlements beyond those borders now (it has been 43 years after all) that they would have to adjust them, or make some provision for managing some of the settlements somehow.
But assuming they come to agreement, when the Hamas rocket attacks step up and suicide bombings resume (and believe me, they WILL resume), the U.S., UN, and influential Muslim States like Egypt and Jordan cannot just sit on their asses and issue “stern warnings” again. They have to support the Israelis and Palestinians who remain committed to peace. A joint task force & military operation with Palestinians and Israelis fighting along side each other against Hamas would be a dream come true. I’m not holding my breath that it will ever happen. But that’s the only way I see the situation over there ever improving.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2010 at 2336 hrs
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