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Palin Debates Biden | Home | HEADLINE: Joe Biden Steals Sarah Palin's Child

Thursday, October 02, 2008

Biden/Palin Debate Live Blog

Palin seems forced. Didn’t like her answer that greedy lenders were responsible for the economic woes.

Biden’s response about Obama voting to raise taxes on those earning $42k was weak.

Palin very strong talking about her own record in cutting taxes.

Biden says they will give tax cuts to 95% making less than $350k and calls them “super wealthy.”

Palin, good response bringing up small business.

Gwen asking Palin to “defend” McCain’s healthcare plan… bias anyone? Palin responded very well.

Biden is getting rattled…

Biden ducked the question about what he would scale back in light of the $700 billion bailout. He named one item - foreign aid - but then just talked about spending plans and tax increased.

Palin really taking control of this debate. Emphasizing energy and own record on the issue. Ducked the question too.

GREAT answer to Gwen’s followup. She hasn’t promised anything because she’s the VP.

Palin hitting corruption on Wall Street again. I hate that. It’s true, to an extent, but she fails to put the blame on Congress, the Bush Administration, and the American people. There’s plenty of blame to go around.

Palin is weak in transitioning, but good once she gets into the topic. It shows a lack of experience in high level debates, but I think that actually reinforces her persona.

They [1] keep going on .. and on and on .. about taxes and tax breaks for the middle-classes.

Phhbtt.

If I cared about high taxes I would not have moved to Wisconsin, would I?

Hat tip Brian.

hehe… “the chant is ‘drill baby drill’.” Thanks Steele.

Good for Palin for hitting Biden on record for clean coal.

The constitution calls for same sex benefits? I must have missed that article.

They both have too much makeup on.

Biden, “We will end this war.”

Palin, “Your plan is a white flag of surrender.”

Good for Palin for pointing out Biden’s previous support for McCain.

WOW. Palin hit Obama as Naiive. Gutsy. Risky but gutsy.

Good response by Palin about Kissenger.

“The theocracy controls the security apparatus in Iran…” by Biden. True, but he didn’t name who Obama would sit down with other than Imanutjob.

Biden should dye his hair red.

Palin seems very rehearsed when she recites the names of foreign leaders when she mentions other nations.

Biden was incoherrent on the nuclear test ban topic.

Biden, “I gave the president the power.” Ego much?

Palin hits Biden hard on “voted for the war but now oppose it.” Plays ‘outsider’ card. Nice shot.

Palin doing well continually bringing up Biden’s record and emphasizing McCain’s record.

What’s the difference between “prevention” and “preemption?”

Role of VP… Palin rocked on this question. Biden took up the attack and then seemed pretty weak.

Biden: good answer about people’s motives.

Closing statements…

Palin ROCKED. Straight talk right to the average American.

Biden did OK. He had some great comments but also some cheap political shots.

OVERALL:

Both candidates did well. Compared to expectations, Palin did much better. In balance, I thing it was somewhere between a a tie and a slight Palin win.

(90) Comments

Posted by Owen at 2020 hrs

Politics + Politics - General
Tags: politics

Wow, again you think the Republican is kicking ass. Color me shocked.

They could have sent a deranged hyena on the stage that attacked and killed Ifill and you’d say it was winning.

Owen, Sarah souns like more of a Dem than Biden does. Taking on Wall Street and regulating it? Taking on the oil companies and getting Alaskans’ fair share?

Like I’ve said before and you haven’t responded to, if Doyle taxed whatever our top industry is to the tune of $1.5 billion and wrote us all checks, he’d have an 80% approval rating too, and you’d be calling him a communist.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2030 hrs

Did you actually read my comments, ATV? Or did you just assume. Look again at the several comment where I criticize Palin.

Grow up.
Posted by Owen on October 02, 2008 at 2039 hrs

Palin isn’t a deep thinker. She’s not a debater. So on the merits of classic debate, I think she’s losing this. How you could let Biden get by with the line that he wants to reduce principal on everyone’s home mortgages and not slam that back as an unconstitutional taking of property and distortion of US contract law is beyond me.

On the other hand, Biden’s been in Washington for 30-years. He’s got as much a hand in this mess as all the others and I can’t see him magically solving anything for us if elected. I do get a sense that I’d rather have Sarah making decisions than Biden. Just on a common sense basis.

It will be interesting to see how the average viewer (and not us blog nuts) view this thing.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2050 hrs

I agree. It’s difficult for me to look at this through the eyes of an “average” person. I’m a news/political junkie and see it differently.
Posted by Owen on October 02, 2008 at 2053 hrs

Biden is getting rattled…

My daughter looked over and said “he sighs real deep just like you do, Dad.”

Gee, thanks, daughter.
Posted by Brian Dunbar on October 02, 2008 at 2059 hrs

Owen,

In light of reports of Ifill possibly being biased, have you noticed any of that. It seems to me that she has been pretty fair, but I’ve had other work to do and may have missed something.
Posted by Dean on October 02, 2008 at 2059 hrs

So on the merits of classic debate, I think she’s losing this. How

Possibly. But this isn’t a classic debate.
Posted by Brian Dunbar on October 02, 2008 at 2101 hrs

I think she’s doing fairly well so far. I’ve detected a few instances of preferential treatment, but nothing obscene. She;s doing good.
Posted by Owen on October 02, 2008 at 2101 hrs

Yeah, I think she presents herself well. And I think she has a “common sense” to her. I just don’t know though whether she’ll connect with average American tonight.

Part of the challenge here is I’m not really sure after the last two weeks what John McCain stands for on economic issues. So in that sense, Palin flails a bit on economic issues.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2109 hrs

As one of those “greedy” mortgage lenders, it’s difficult for me to swallow being lumped into the catchbag of GREEDY. I am and have a history, along with many if not most of my associates, remain committed to promoting licensing, and education as requirements for our counterparts. In addition, many of us have clamored to see more clarity in consumer disclosure, to our consternation of Federal guidelines, namely the existing “Truth-in-Lending” disclosure which I would rather describe “Truth-in-Confusion”, that stays stuck in the 1970’s .

I’m sure my associates would create a much more clear disclosure. But let me reiterate, there has been agregious violations from a small number of brokers, but the greatest violation of the Public Trust takes place in the Doyle Administration which steals the greater part of my license fee and spends it in the state general fund, NOT to police the complaints and unfair practices by lenders. Just talk to the miniscule staff ( I reluctantly call for greater staff) but the consumer complaints in the State of the Badger, ” Taxidea taxus” remains in the Agriculture Dept. No Answer to common sense, no answer to good goverrnment.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2114 hrs

Role of VP… Palin rocked on this question.

Let me get this straight - she says she wants an expanded legislative role for the Vice President, and you as a Conservative who allegedly supports the intentions of the founders, think that answer rocked?

I was trying to be funny, but frankly I think the hyena could kill everyone in the audience and you’d think they did well.

By the way, what would you say if Doyle raised a dime an a half in taxes and wrote us checks with the surplus?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2137 hrs

Eh. As a “big event” junkie I was hoping Palin would run off the stage crying, or Biden would call her “toots”. I don’t think either candidate did that great.

If it were about competence, and pandering to policy junkies like me instead of rednecks and college communists, I still haven’t seen a debate top the Cheney-Lieberman tilt in ‘00.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2140 hrs

I think when the VP pick of Palin was made, one or a couple of you guys said in the end the VP pick doesn’t matter. I still think Palin brings McCain some votes he wouldn’t otherwise get.

That said, she won’t be enough to pull McCain out of his rut in the next 30-days. Only McCain can do that for himself.

I did like her strategy to talk over Biden and Ifill and go straight to the people rather than having the mainstream media relay to us what she is about.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2146 hrs

I was trying to be funny, but frankly I think the hyena could kill everyone in the audience and you’d think they did well.

Objectively speaking, if a hyena - a mid-sized critter - did manage to kill several hundred people in one hour I think he’d be doing pretty darn well.
Posted by Brian Dunbar on October 02, 2008 at 2152 hrs

Is this the brain shrinkage thread?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2152 hrs

I don’t know about “rocked” but I think she held her own.

God, I hate MSNBC. I don’t know why I still tune there.
Posted by Dean on October 02, 2008 at 2200 hrs

I thought Palin did well, especially early. I think over the course of the debate her lack of depth of knowledge began to show, as she seemed to rely on talking points too much, not in the way of reiterating the message she wanted to get across and repackaging an idea, but a little bit of rote memorization. That said she avoided any of the train wreck moments that have plagued her national TV interviews.

Biden started off slow, but gradually either through Palin’s somewhat shallow answers or his assertiveness (I’m not sure which) he seemed to take on an authoritative tone. He too avoided his traditional weaknesses of bloviating and acting in a patronizing manner.

I want to avoid discussing substance too much, because that isn’t what is really on the line in these things. But there was one substantive issue I think Biden really messed up on. Owen made a comment about it, but I want to expand a little.

Biden went full circle by pissing off everyone when he answered the same sex benefit question and the same sex marriage follow-up. First he essentially claimed that the constitution provides same sex couples with a right to benefits. I think he meant something along the lines of in the spirit of equal rights and equal protection guaranteed by the constitution (which would have been out there enough) but that isn’t what he said. What he said sounded like a claim that the rights to those benefits are guaranteed by the constitution. So there he pissed off everyone who ranks opposition to same sex marriage as a top issue.

Then on the follow-up he uses no nuance at all when asked point blank whether he and Obama support same sex marriage. I think he said no three times, before even trying to explain their position (which is in favor of civil unions I think), and then his explaination of their position was very poor. So poor that my wife turned to me after that exchange pissed off that Obama/Biden are opposed to same sex couples.

It was an astounding couple of minutes where he managed to tick off everyone on both sides of the issue.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2201 hrs

I think when the VP pick of Palin was made, one or a couple of you guys said in the end the VP pick doesn’t matter. I still think Palin brings McCain some votes he wouldn’t otherwise get.

You might’ve seen my comments. I said that neither Biden nor Palin would decide this election. I wouldn’t go so far as to say neither matters. I think Palin gets McCain votes that otherwise might’ve stayed at home, but she doesn’t get the swing votes to put him over the top. He has to earn those on his own. I think that is close to what you are saying.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2205 hrs

Lefty, yes, you’ve got my thoughts down. And I concur with what you are saying. I thought five weeks ago she could be a game changer…i.e. that she along could swing this race 3 points McCain’s way. Now I’d say maybe she can swing if a half point.

Of course the greatest financial panic since 1932 and McCain’s lack of leadership or a plan is what is killing him right now. But to your point, it again comes back on what McCain is or isn’t doing.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2212 hrs

To be blunt. I was amazed by Joe Biden’s performance. He did rather well and made no serious gaffs. Most important, he seemed to be in the debate to win one for the team and not Joe. Good stuff.

Palin was amazing in that she matched Biden’s performance punch by punch. She was expected to tread water and she was neck and neck with Biden on every lap.

I don’t know what this debate means for the election.

Even the talking heads couldn’t beat up on her too much. I don’t have MSNBC tonight but I watched ABC. Could the Republicans have “strategists” who won’t stab us in the back when commenting on the major networks?

BTW those “strategists” are the reason the Republican brand is in dire shape.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2225 hrs

Gov. Palin exceeded expectations and held her own very well.. I think she possesses the character traits I would like to see in a VP candidate. On the other hand, I think Biden would be clashing more with Obama and they would not work together as well as the McCain/Palin team.Either candidate will be jumping into a frenzy of a political whirlpool right now, so I think they should focus on the economic plans/outlook which is foremost on people’s minds.I think this debate may bring more votes toward McCain, because Sarah Palin DID connect with the average taxpayer AND she explained her broad platform fairly clearly and with conviction.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2234 hrs

I personally go for substance over style, and Palin just has not demonstrated (tonight or any other time I’ve seen her) much substance. Every time she opens her mouth, I wish McCain had picked someone like Condi Rice. If Rice had to take over the presidency, I might not agree with her policy directions but I would never doubt that she could run a country. Granted, as a card-carrying liberal, I am not Palin’s target audience but I honestly try to be objective - she didn’t come off as an idiot, but she definitely struck me as a lightweight who doesn’t really understand the complexities of many of these issues. No gravitas.

Style wise, her syntax drives me crazy. It is the typical verbosity you get when a politician is trying to fill air when they don’t have much content to communicate. I also found the winking and folksiness irritating, but then, I’m a liberal elitist so of course I don’t like folksy (at least, not when it seems so calculated).

She did get some jabs in. She didn’t crash and burn. I wouldn’t guess that she really impressed undecideds, but I wouldn’t guess she scared them off either. I thought Biden did a better job and came off as much more credible, but Palin didn’t screw the pooch and in some ways that is all she needed to do to “win”.
Posted by hope on October 02, 2008 at 2239 hrs

I thought Sarah Palin missed a huge opportunity to paint Joe Biden (and Barack) in a corner.

Every time Sarah Palin brought up Barack voting against funding the troops Biden responded “McCain voted the same way on that vote because of the withdrawl timetable”

To which if I was Gov. Palin I would have said “right Joe, cause McCain doesn’t support a timetable for withdrawl. now why did OBAMA vote against that funding for the troops because we all knew he DOES support a timetable for withdrawl”
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2243 hrs

She worked the camera brilliantly, and spoke directly to America. She connected with middle-class folks because she is authentically one of us.

By exceeding expectations she was the clear winner.

Hopefully McCain won’t blow the tie (lead?) in the polls she’s going to give him with this performance.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2244 hrs

If placing the needs of America above political consideration is truly the heart that beats in John McCain there will be no problem in seeing the need to removing Sarah Palin. If Palin were honest with herself she would understand that her role in Alaska can be used as a training ground for future ambitions. But she should not use the American government as her school at so precarious a time in our nation’s history. Sarah Palin is wholly unprepared to be Vice-President of the United States, and needs to be replaced.

If Sarah Palin will not make the right decision for the nation, the nation must make the right decision for Sarah Palin.
Posted by Gregory on October 02, 2008 at 2248 hrs

xxpilot, Obama voted against a funding bill because it did not include a timetable. McCain voted against another funding bill because it did contain a timetable. By McCain’s logic, McCain voted against funding the troops himself.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 02, 2008 at 2254 hrs

After 30 seconds that Northern Exposure schtick got old except for the most adoring partisans.

For those who stuck with their consciousness that long, there was that shocking point near the end where Joe Biden did that touching recall of his son’s near death experience. Perhaps it was political theater, but Sarah Palin exploded whatever folksiness she so carefully fabricated during the debate with her shockingly clueless discussion when the discussion turned back to her.

She was like an automotron spewing out talking points, with a couple of winks programmed in for good measure.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0708 hrs

I can tell my the reactin of the Democrats on this debate that Gov. Palin won this debate hands down. The only sound bites worth remembering came from Gov. Palin. I’m proud to be a Palin supporter. Choke on that.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0754 hrs

I think both candidates did well. They each managed to avoid his or her particular trouble spot: Biden stayed on task, and Palin didn’t look like a deer in headlights.

My personal take… It’s hard for me to listen to her seemingly well-informed answers and think anything but “she probably didn’t even know what this issue was six weeks ago, now she’s an expert on it?” But at least she sounded good. Biden missed some good opportunities to sharpen the message. (Man, I wish I could get a job as a speechwriter.)

Here’s some empirical data for those of you claiming that Palin won: She didn’t.
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 0803 hrs

Um, I’m pretty sure any researcher will tell you that a phone poll isn’t “empirical evidence.”
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0813 hrs

I think she did okay. She did sound like a liberal when she went off on “Wall Street greed”, but, overall, I think the differences between the two candidates were fairly well demonstrated. She was effective on the “looking back” argument, and, I think, did a decent job of separating McCain from Bush.

Biden didn’t bloviate too much, and in that sense he did a decent job as well. I thought he got a bit rattled during the war funding discussion, which is surprising considering his experience.

In my view, neither candidate stood out as a clear winner. I give Palin a slight nod, but that could be some of my bias creeping in.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0819 hrs

Sure it’s empirical, Wendy. One might make the case that it’s not definitive, but it definitely is empirical. Nobody just “thought up” that data. They went out and gathered it.

If there’s a less biased or more reliable way to determine who “won,” I’d like to see it. I know for sure it won’t involve blog readers personal opinions (mine included).
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 0823 hrs

LGF did a poll also, and Palin kicked Biden’s butt.

scott’s definition of empirical = anything that agrees with or supports his position
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0825 hrs

Who is “LGF” and where can I see this story?
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 0833 hrs

Here’s another poll indicating Biden won.

Either way, I don’t think the debate is going to matter much in the grand scheme of things. Nobody gaffed, and history indicates that the VP debates don’t swing elections in the first place.
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 0847 hrs

Actually I think this is the permalink.
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 0850 hrs

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/31448_Poll-_Who_Won

Thats the LGF I know.

I’ll keep my comments to myself about the debate…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0853 hrs

You must be joking. A poll of readers of a conservative blog is the equivalent of the two professional polls I just linked to?

Please. I really would like at least one McCain/Palin supporter to admit that it just isn’t.
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 0859 hrs

Keith, that was some pretty bold analysis considering you have not checked in with Joy Behar. Get back to us on what you really think after you watch “The View.”

As far as a folksy sketch, you must of loved Biden’s. Where was he from again? Somewhere in PA but he made so many refeences he must have lived in every city.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0903 hrs

Governor Palin did better than I thought she would, but to me, she lost most of her credibility early on when she said (and I’m paraphrasing here), “I’m not going to answer the questions the way you want me to. I’m going to talk straight to the American people.” Translation: “I’ve memorized a bunch of talking points, and I’m going to get them out there, even if I have ignore your pesky questions to do it.”

Still in over her head.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0911 hrs

It was a joke, scott. No, I don’t think the LGF “poll” is an accurate representation of who the nation at large thinks won the debate.

I do think you put entirely too much faith in polls. Remember the exit polling last time?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0925 hrs

The poll from the readers of the typically right leaning Wall Street Journal goes decisively to Biden.

Undecided voters have been skeptical of Palin since day one. To alleviate that skepticism she needed to display a clear command of all the issues. I don’t see how the unbiased eye would have seen that.

I think Obama’s lead will grow again next week.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0941 hrs

bias anyone?

Pot… Kettle….
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 0954 hrs

It was kind of funny listening to all the tax bs.

Somebody forgot to hit the refresh button on Palin’s talking points.

Biden, McCain & Obama all voted for the largest tax increase in history, Tuesday night.

And Palin bragged about implementing an oil company tax that sounded a lot like the one that the guy in Madison talked about and was summarily skewered right on these pages.

Remember that Owen?

The thing that I just can’t get out of head is trying to picture Chenney winking into the camera.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1027 hrs

Let’s see what the undecides say.

McCain’s snarky attacks did him in. Biden did stay classy in the face of some rather tempting openings provided by Palin all night long. You might get off on that, but many have had enough.

You look at the way she handled herself as a professional during the Alaskan governor debates versus last night when she channeled Ma Kettle and treated you for a tour through Rubeland. You can’t be more fake.

Authentic? About as authentic as Eskimo scrimshaw souvenirs made in China.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1036 hrs

Keith: I can sense your hands shaking, in fear, as you typed the last line. Even in your Joy Behar world of illusion, you can tell she is the real deal.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1045 hrs

You look at the way she handled herself as a professional during the Alaskan governor debates versus last night when she channeled Ma Kettle and treated you for a tour through Rubeland. You can’t be more fake.

I’d like to see those debates - are they online, Keith?
Posted by Brian Dunbar on October 03, 2008 at 1051 hrs

you can tell she is the real deal.

And what “real deal” is that John.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1055 hrs

Biden, McCain & Obama all voted for the largest tax increase in history, Tuesday night.

agreed

she lost most of her credibility early on when she said (and I’m paraphrasing here), “I’m not going to answer the questions the way you want me to. I’m going to talk straight to the American people.” Translation: “I’ve memorized a bunch of talking points, and I’m going to get them out there, even if I have ignore your pesky questions to do it.”

I thought that was a little odd too…

I wasn’t blown away. I restate this all the time, I’ll be voting for Bob Barr, but I hope McCain wins.. And I think Sarah Palin is a great pick for VP.

I don’t think she sounded that great last night. I was half tuned in, half tuned out (washing my truck while I had the TV in the garage on) but like Owen said, when she got on-point, she sounded good, but her transitions were bad. I think thats because trying to morph a question she didn’t have a good answer to, into a talking point response. And sometimes the talking points didn’t fit at all, so its hard to make that transition.

If I was an undecided and I was picking my candidates on performance, not substance, I’d say Biden won. He’s just “better” at this.

Unfortunately, I don’t know WHAT the undecideds make their choice on. So who knows.

Perhaps it was too much of a gamble, but Sarah Palin should have been more honest about who she is. When a topic came up that didn’t have the right answer too, or Biden pointed out an inconsistency with John McCain or whatever, whether it be voting record, or whether it be bashing bush (Biden just couldn’t get off the bush-bashing) Sarah should have just said something like “you know, there’s a lot of things that have gone on in Washington over the past 16 years that I haven’t been a part of, so let me tell you what I believe” and voiced her beliefs.

i think she’d have done much better with that kind of approach.

Overall, after the events of the past 2 weeks, I just feel more than ever, that we’re fucked no matter who gets in.

This bullshit bailout has more then ever before demonstrated to me that way too many of the elected people in washington don’t have a FRIGGEN clue when it comes to the economy. Not a damn clue. Foreign policy… fine… hack that out all day long… But messing so deeply with the economy… these guys have NO idea what they are doing. The vast majority of economists are even saying the same thing. And both parties are just playing a game of battleship with the economy here.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1109 hrs

My problem here is that I think Palin did just talk over Ifill with her pre-recorded sound bites. She’s not a deep thinker.

But that said, we’ve had a score of hundreds of “Joe Biden’s, Obama’s and McCain’s” running things for years. Maybe Ma Kettle common sense could do a better job.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1117 hrs

The vast majority of economists are even saying the same thing.

What are the vast majority of economists saying?
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 1119 hrs

I think he’s referring to those 200 economists who signed their name to that petition saying the bailout bill would cause more problems than it would solve

Here’s a link:

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id; =6415132
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1129 hrs

Palin does scare the shit out of me, but not for the reasons you guys assume. It is seriously frightening that large swaths of this country are swayed to vote again for failed policies that have harmed them and their country just because they like a folksy sales pitch delivered by a pretty face.

If that doesn’t scare you it certainly should.

It is a little encouraging that most of the country still sees right through Palin’s folksy BS, but it is incredibly discouraging that the most powerful political machine in this country would put this woman on stage and claim she is the second most qualified leader they have to offer.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1135 hrs

yea, 3rd, I feel the same way about people voting for a handsome, well spoken, african american with no accomplishments but was able to write two books about himself. That is scarry. Oh, he did provide cover for Fannie May and Freddie Mac. Good work O.

Give me Ma Kettle anytime.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1151 hrs

I think it all comes down to policy proposals and party platform. I can’t support most Republican positions on issues, nor does their platform appeal to me. No amount of personality is going to get me over that hump.

Unfortunately, undecided voters probably operate on the exact opposite principle. Sigh.
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 1154 hrs

Scott and 3rd way - thanks - I like Sarah even better now.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1202 hrs

What’d I do?
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 1207 hrs

What’d I do?

You entered logic into the discussion.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1233 hrs

John, thanks for proving my point.

Guess authentic is coming from a small town, which is the crystal capital of Alaska; authentic means you have this back-breaking job as mayor, when even this small town had to hire a city manager to cover for her making the job very part time; authentic means claiming to have been a good mayor, when you leave behind you a $20 million debt.

What do you do for a living John. House assessor?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1248 hrs

Experience Experience Experience… Blah blah blah.

I’m not convinced the kind of experience that comes from being in washington is what the country needs.

This is not rocket science. Its policy. Policy requires principle and if we could just get someone to go to washington and do the right thing (not play politics and sway to lobbyists and special interests of all kinds) we’d be in better shape.

And if you aren’t SURE what you do for the economy would help it, then keep your fucking hands off!

yea, 3rd, I feel the same way about people voting for a handsome, well spoken, african american with no accomplishments but was able to write two books about himself.

Lets be real…. If Barack Obama wasn’t black and didn’t have a catchy name, he wouldn’t be anywhere close to the position he’s in.

Scratch that… Forget the catchy name. If Barack Obama was white, he would just be a junior senator from Illinois that no one listened to and no one cared about.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1300 hrs

Lets be real…. If Barack Obama wasn’t black and didn’t have a catchy name, he wouldn’t be anywhere close to the position he’s in.

Scratch that… Forget the catchy name. If Barack Obama was white, he would just be a junior senator from Illinois that no one listened to and no one cared about.

Let me expand this before the libs jump on it:

If a white guy with the exact same education, the exact same upbringing, the exact same credentials, the exact same policy position, who had the exact same voting record as obama the exact same ‘experience’ as obama… The exact same time in the senate. He’d be a NOBODY.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1302 hrs

From early Nielsen ratings:
UPDATED: Thursday’s highly anticipated face-off between Alaska governor Sarah Palin and Delaware senator Joe Biden may be the most-watched debate in 16 years.

Didn’t know Biden was such a big draw…

No Keith, I am not a house assessor, I am a community organizer for Fannie Mae and a “developer” in Chicago.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1305 hrs

if we could just get someone to go to washington and do the right thing

I think that’s a fallacy. We don’t need “better” people, we need a better system. One in which money isn’t as influential as it is today. I’m thinking about publicly financed elections, free air time, etc. Sitting around wringing our hands and moaning that politicians just aren’t as moral as you and I is a mental trap which prevents us from actually doing anything to improve American politics.

If Barack Obama was white, he would just be a junior senator from Illinois that no one listened to and no one cared about.

I don’t think that’s true. If you go back and listen to the speech he gave at the Democratic convention you’ll note that it’s not just a visual, not just a black face that people are cheering for. it’s his message and his tone. His ethnic background definitely is influencing his political career, but I expect it hurts him as much as it helps him.
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 1308 hrs

If politicians had to campaign anonymously and conceal their identities there is a very good chance Obama would be in the same position he is in now. He delivered the right message at the right time. His bio has bothed helped and hurt him.

There is no chance in hell Palin would be in the position she is in if she was being judged solely by her statements and policy positions. It is blatantly obvious to everyone that she didn’t have policy positions on the critical issue of our time 6 weeks ago. Obama has been writing and speaking about his policy positions for most of his adult life.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1315 hrs

No matter what you do for a living John you seem to like being BS’ed for a hobby.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1317 hrs

I think that’s a fallacy. We don’t need “better” people, we need a better system.

I agree, but we don’t need public financing. What we do need are term limits.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1334 hrs

Glad you all enjoyed the show. Hate to spoil it for you. No, wait, I don’t—Sarah Palin didn’t separate McCain from Bush.

Mission unaccomplished.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1334 hrs

Keith, isn’t “The View” on? Run along now. Since we are trading insults, and you are so far up Obama’s butt, could you tell us what he had for lunch today?

Before you come back with something profound like: “I know you are but what am I” I can tell you what Palin had for lunch: Biden.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1336 hrs

Also, I disagree with scott and 3way (no surprise there, of course ) - what, other than race, is the difference between Obama and Feingold? On paper, Feingold would be a better candidate because he has a much better resume. I don’t think it’s wrong that being AA helped him, but denying that it did is plain silly.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1339 hrs

I said I believe it helps and hurts him. Just ask Clinton supporters in rural Pennsylvania. Not every American is wetting themselves over the prospect of having the first black president.
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 1342 hrs

He’d be a NOBODY.

No he would be the junior Senator from that made a speech at the convention in 2004 that got everyone’s attention.

Come on xxp, if he were where he is based solely on race, McCain would have picked Aunt Jemima as his running mate instead of Ma Kettle.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1350 hrs

Sorry scott, had not read your response, you got it exactly right.

cynical, term limits are not going to change a thing without campaign finance reform.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1358 hrs

There is no chance in hell Palin would be in the position she is in if she was being judged solely by her statements and policy positions.

mmm… Not so sure. Most popular (in their state) governor in the country. They are always on the top of the vp search list.

But I’ll put it on this way. If Sarah Palin was a dude, she’d have NEVER been picked. She was picked because of everything she is AND she’s a woman. No question. (in my opinion)

But we are still comparing apples to oranges. John McCain could have picked ME as his running mate. Everytime someone compares a VP candidate who is selected to a presidential candidate who is elected… I don’t think the same standards and same critique applies.

No he would be the junior Senator from that made a speech at the convention in 2004 that got everyone’s attention.

He wouldn’t have been asked to give a speech at the 2004 convention if he wasn’t black. They don’t put freshmen senators who just got elected up at the national convention to speak…. Er… The democrats don’t put WHITE MALE freshmen senators up to speak at the DNC.

If you go back and listen to the speech he gave at the Democratic convention you’ll note that it’s not just a visual, not just a black face that people are cheering for. it’s his message and his tone.

The senate is full of guys with great message and great tone. I heard some fantastic freedom inspiring speeches last week from guys who I’ve never heard speak before and damn if they didn’t have the delivery, the message and the ‘tone’.

But I’ll agree Barack had “the message, the tone, AND being black”

He’s not there JUST because he’s black. He’s many things. Successful, educated, the list is long but NOT distinguished amongst his peers. Its the list AND his race that distinguishes him.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1438 hrs

He wouldn’t have been asked to give a speech at the 2004 convention if he wasn’t black.

How do you know that?

Its the list AND his race that distinguishes him.

That is just like saying he is where he is because of the total package of who he is.

What’s your point?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1502 hrs

We already have term limits. They’re called elections. You don’t somebody in after X terms, do something about it. Term limits are just another way of telling me whom I can vote for.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1512 hrs

I totally agree. Term limits just limit who I can vote for. I don’t want that kind of limitation.
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 1516 hrs

I don’t want that kind of limitation.

Yet you’d limit your freedom of speech by eliminating your ability to support the candidate of your choice financially. Just amazing…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1529 hrs

Well, last time I checked being able to vote for an incumbent than I liked wasn’t causing the disintegration of democracy. People and organizations giving large sums of money to political causes is.
Posted by scott on October 03, 2008 at 1533 hrs

Yet you’d limit your freedom of speech by eliminating your ability to support the candidate of your choice financially.

Freedom of speech should have nothing to do with the loudness of your voice or the size of your wallet.

Organizations, public or private, are not citizens and don’t vote.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1555 hrs

John glad to see you’ve got as much class as your VP candidate.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1659 hrs

A nice anthology of Biden gaffes is up at NRO.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1850 hrs

Tony, I couldn’t tell.

Did you wink when you posted that comment?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1855 hrs

That is just like saying he is where he is because of the total package of who he is.

What’s your point?

Theres dozens of democrats in the senate who have better credentials and everything else than B.O. But they aren’t black.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1857 hrs

better credentials

OK
and everything else

That is where you lose me.

Can you do a flow chart for me?

I get the rest.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1915 hrs

I guess I’ll give up on humor since it’s lost on Owen, as is answering direct questions.

I’m confused, honestly, at how people can watch Ms. Palin and support her. She purposefully and arrogantly told us she wouldn’t answer any questions and instead just give a campaign speech in 90 second bits.

How can that be? Are you not a public servant interviewing for a job? I cannot remember walking into an interview and telling my would-be manager that I’m not going to answer how he or she wants, but instead I will provide a series of talking points, over and over and over.

If I did that I’d be shown the door, and rightfully so. I think most conservative Palin-supporters here know that is the truth.

I understand the populism, the anti-elitism. I probably come across as a hell of an elitist on the blogs, but the fact is I come from trash cheaper than Palin and even I recognize my family shouldn’t be in charge of anything other than their households.

That’s why when I watch this debate, I see Biden answering the actual questions with (mostly) facts, an a lot of opinions and proposals with which I disagree. Then I see Palin offer no answers, mistake the current general in Afghanistan with a civil war general, and offer a bunch of folksy Fargoisms where serious and thoughtful responses are required.

It’s like rooting for Rickie Weeks to stay at second solely because some radio host says he sucks. Never mind the guy can’t hit, can’t field, can’t get on base, it’s just an emotional reaction. I don’t understand it.

I say this as a guy who donate the max to McCain in 2000. I don’t recognize this man, and I sure as hell don’t want this amateur, while certainly a nice woman who I’m sure I’d befriend had I met her at my kids’ soccer game, anywhere near the Oval unless it’s on a staff tour.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 1943 hrs

Are you not a public servant interviewing for a job?

So Owen how do you react when an applicant winks incessantly during an interview?

while certainly a nice woman who I’m sure I’d befriend

If I met her when I was single @ the local bar.

Even McCain reveals more than he should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNz2VhCJ3B0&feature;=related

I think I am going to be sick.

God Pants what happened to those Wilson girls?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 03, 2008 at 2014 hrs

I suppose it’s unpatriotic to pay attention to the foreign media, but here’s an interesting perspective from the UK that nails the absurdity of Palin’s debate performance and smacks the American media for being too timid to say anything other than “she exceeded expectations.”
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 06, 2008 at 1119 hrs

here’s an interesting perspective from the UK

The author was born in Buffalo, a graduate of Berkeley and teaches at NYU. Her perspective is from New York City, but published in the UK.

that nails the absurdity of Palin’s debate performance

Clearly a balanced and thoughtful opinion piece ...

Palin, however, has single-handedly so lowered the standards both for female candidates and American political discourse that, with her newfound ability to speak in more-or-less full sentences, she is now deemed to have performed acceptably last night.

Nothing that I haven’t read before.
Posted by Brian Dunbar on October 06, 2008 at 1139 hrs

That’s why when I watch this debate, I see Biden answering the actual questions with (mostly) facts, an a lot of opinions and proposals with which I disagree. Then I see Palin offer no answers, mistake the current general in Afghanistan with a civil war general, and offer a bunch of folksy Fargoisms where serious and thoughtful responses are required.

Well I would again submit that the debates are not targeted to either you nor I. The television commercials that both of these candidates run are not targeted to you nor I.

I submit that EVERYONE who is interested in politics enough to come on this blog probably LONG ago (long before this election) made up their mind about what they believe and who they are going to vote for.

Remember campaigns are targeting the DASV’s (dumb ass swing voters) and as such this is what we get. So you might not like the “folksyness fargoisms” meant to snag DASV’s anymore than I am repulsed by the absolutely baseless class warfare the democrats throw out there just to sway DASV’s.

But trust me… looking at all the dumbed down political speak we’ve got going on here, and the less-than-intelligent methodology of democrats of blaming everything on the Bush administration… liberals (and I don’t know what you are so this is just a general comment) liberals better be DAMN happy they are just trying to win over the least intelligent (in the context of least politically and economically informed) segment of the population.

Because if the ‘swing vote’ was made up of economists or constitutional scholars, I’m pretty damn confident we wouldn’t see a democrat elected ever again.

You might not like the
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on October 06, 2008 at 1255 hrs

if the ‘swing vote’ was made up of economists or constitutional scholars, I’m pretty damn confident we wouldn’t see a democrat elected ever again.

I don’t think that’s even remotely true.
Posted by scott on October 06, 2008 at 1305 hrs

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