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Thursday, March 13, 2008

Ashley Alexandra Dupre

You know… I’ve seen the pictures of Spitzer’s “escort” all over the place.

The thought that keeps hitting me is, “how sad.” Here’s a lovely young lady who could be anything she wanted to be. The world was her oyster. And she chose to be a common hooker. Sure, she got paid more than most, but she’s no different than any other whore trading free use of her body for cash.

Worse still, I have little doubt that she will make tens of thousands of dollars off of this, because our society celebrates fame at any cost.

Like I said… “how sad.”

(63) Comments

Posted by Owen at 2012 hrs

Culture + Politics + Politics - General
Tags: culture, politics

I think anyone who’s driven down some of America’s seedier streets would call her “common.”
Posted by elliot on March 13, 2008 at 2146 hrs

I don’t feel sorry for her at all. She got everything she wanted and plenty more out of her chosen vocation. I wonder if she has any regret about her employment decision. She is going to be a millionaire by the end of the year.

I feel sad that we have a culture that celebrates her.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 13, 2008 at 2158 hrs

I have no idea which of Americas’ “seedier streets” you’ve been down, but obviously they are much better than any I’ve been down!

I am so going to hell for this…..
Posted by Michael J. Cheaney on March 13, 2008 at 2203 hrs

Damnit. I could have sworn I wrote, ” I DON’T think anyone…” Sigh. My only excuse is I was blinded by the whiteness of the bikini.
Posted by elliot on March 13, 2008 at 2212 hrs

So do you think Mr. Hefner has called yet?
Posted by Michael J. Cheaney on March 13, 2008 at 2221 hrs

No le toca ni con la tuya.
Posted by The Asian Badger on March 13, 2008 at 2225 hrs

Hefner and Flint have allegedly already called. She has also reportedly sold more than a million dollars worth of downloads of her music since the story broke.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 13, 2008 at 2228 hrs

Actually 3rd way immediately after I wrote that I went over to Jays site and read what you posted over there, thats 1.3 Mil number is just mind blowing! (Pun intended)
Posted by Michael J. Cheaney on March 13, 2008 at 2240 hrs

Here’s a lovely young lady who could be anything she wanted to be. The world was her oyster.

I think her beauty is all part of the problem.

Good looking women get places in life just because they are good looking.

Not so attractive women have to learn and develop marketable skills. They have to develop better social skills.

How many people would talk to an ugly girl who was a bitch…

But the world is full of an endless line of males who are willing to, for a short time, “pay attention” to a hot girl with an attitude. And when they find out that its not worth it, another guy will be there to take his place.

Not so attractive women have to develop more communication skills, more empathic skills.

Good looking women can just pursue modeling, or acting, or singing, or even a role in business where they can provide eye candy for an interested employer. Any endless number of endeavors where their looks will ALWAYS get them in the door, (but may never close a deal)

So then when they start finding out that there isn’t much room at the top, where all the cream has risen (LA/New York/Miami) then a certain portion of them resorts to the one last thing that many girls at the top won’t. They compromise themselves.

This girl took the easy way out. And she’ll win.

The reality is any gorgeous female CAN absolutely get whatever she wants (materially) if she is willing to compromise herself on various levels.

I heard some of this girls myspace postings read on the news tonight. She’s a first class snot.

I believe her myspace headline was “my friends and I walk on toilet paper because we are the shit”

disgusting
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 13, 2008 at 2311 hrs

Oh, and I forgot to mention, What a hot bod, and I’d hit it…

Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 13, 2008 at 2313 hrs

The only ones that I feel sorry for in this are Spitzer’s kids and the hundreds of Strong Funds employees that lost their jobs during the sleazeball’s power grab on his way to the top.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 13, 2008 at 2328 hrs

I don’t understand all the drooling in here. She’s an attractive young woman, but not what I would call “drop dead” gorgeous.

How can someone throw away everything they have achieved in life for 2 hours with a bimbo? I never cared much for Spitzner, but he certainly was on the fast track to have a decent shot at president in a few years. You have to marvel at the level of self-implosion.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 0650 hrs

#
Oh, and I forgot to mention, What a hot bod, and I’d hit it…

cool smile
Posted by xxpilot on March 13, 2008 at 2313 hrs

Me too, I just won’t pay $4k+ for it.
$19.95 on special? I’d have to think about it.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1014 hrs

This girl may make a million by year end by she’ll very likely be a bag lady or working in one of the Vegas whorehouses in 10 years or less.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1035 hrs

Not so attractive women have to learn and develop marketable skills. They have to develop better social skills.

Yep.

Okay - as a woman, I’m comfortable enough with my sexuality to say she’s HOT. Very, very hot.

But it’s sad that she chose to go into a “profession” so sleazy, and it’s even SADDER that people are clamoring to give her record deals, interviews, and spreads in Playboy and Penthouse.

She will get rich off of this, and I can’t believe our culture rewards such behavior.

<sigh>
Posted by Amy P. on March 14, 2008 at 1053 hrs

Maybe she likes what she does. Maybe she’s happy.
Posted by jesusisjustalrightwithme on March 14, 2008 at 1149 hrs

Actually, others will probably get rich off of her. She may experience a short term windfall, but it will all be gone in the next couple of years. She may charge $5000 and hour for her “service”, but she probably only gets a very small fraction of that.

The Playboy/Penthouse/book deal will only make a lot more old, fat, creepy white men happy - I doubt she’s happy.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1155 hrs

Maybe she’s happy.

I don’t know why we would assume that she isn’t. She is now somewhat rich and famous.

I am sure there are hundreds of Jersey girls that envy her. It is sad.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1157 hrs

3rd Way,

I agree. We shouldn’t assume that. That’s my point. Then what’s so sad about her story?
Posted by jesusisjustalrightwithme on March 14, 2008 at 1207 hrs

I doubt she will be able to raise her price if she continues to do what she’s been doing. People didn’t pay $4300 for what she does because she does it differently or better than anyone else. She was able to get $4300 for discretion. Kinda hard to be discreet when you’re with an infamous prostitute.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1217 hrs

Not so attractive women have to learn and develop marketable skills. They have to develop better social skills.

Yep.

Reading what I wrote again, I should rephrase what I say.

I don’t think attractive is the right word because ‘attractive’ takes on a variety of meanings.

For example for me, i’m MORE attracted to a girl thats kinda cute/plain than a girl that looks gorgeous/high maintenance.

I by no means meant to insinuate that the only girls with social skills are ugly girls. Rather just that REALLY gorgeous women do not have to (and as a result rarely do) develop good social skills that your average (and still attractive, just maybe not a knock-out) would.

Maybe she likes what she does. Maybe she’s happy.

The things in life that one person thinks should make another person happy may or may not be.

The things that make me happy may definitely not make anyone else happy.

I think it is safe to assume that at any given moment EVERYONE does the things that they THINK will make themselves happy.

She will get rich off of this, and I can’t believe our culture rewards such behavior.

Yeah, I agree, I think she’ll cash in. I also agree with Glenn that its very likely that when the camera’s go away she won’t have prepared herself financially for that and she’ll have blown what she made and will probably again be at the mercy of men for her financial support. That’s not to say she won’t be living large… but she’ll be dependant on men again to do so. That’s really the only skillset she appears to have adopted.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1226 hrs

JIJAWM - Women degrading themselves for profit is sad. It has something to do with that word you told me was stupid… “ethically”.

The saddest thing I could ever imagine for my daughter would be her selling her body for money. If I care that much about her respecting herself why shouldn’t I care if it is someone else’s kid?

Do you not think that prostitution is demeaning? It is alright if you don’t and it is alright for Ms. Dupre to think she is not degrading herself, we are all entitled to our opinions.

You should make a habit of reading “The Ethicist” in the NYT’s magazine.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1230 hrs

3rd Way. I do read The Ethicist on occasion. And Cohen is on NPR all the time. Actually, if my memory serves, his view of ethics is closer to mine than it is to yours. He seems to think that what is “ethical” is determined by society rather than anything about the specific actor.

Yeah, Prostitution seems a little demeaning. Mostly to the customer though. Who are people frowning upon more right now, Ms. Dupree, or Mr. Spitzer?

Here’s an ethical question for you third way: Would you rather your daughter was a happy prostitute or a depressed banker (or school teacher or whatever)? Why?
Posted by jesusisjustalrightwithme on March 14, 2008 at 1304 hrs

Women degrading themselves for profit is sad.

I think the definition of ‘degrading’ is pretty subjective.

I think bartenders who flirt with guys for better tips are degrading, but that’s just me.

I think people who sell and promote products that are not healthy like fast food and candy are degrading themselves.

The saddest thing I could ever imagine for my daughter would be her selling her body for money.

Happens every day all over this country. Its called marriage. Oh wait… Donald Trumps wife married him because she liked his soul.

Please…

what is the difference 3rd way?

Whats wrong with prostitution? Really? Morally?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1307 hrs

I wonder how much she actually makes on a $4000+ job? It must cost a lot of money to set up a website & someone must act as the “pimp”.

There must be some fantasy being played out here - imagine your typical “alpha male” needing to think that by paying so much per hour, he is getting someone not available to the more common person. Who knows, maybe before and after taking on the $4000 gig, she was doing work at whatever the market rate is. When this first hit the news, I thought maybe these types of prostitutes were so special (Ivy League graduates or something) that it would take a lot of money to get them to turn a trick, but as I read about her, she doesn’t sound that special.

And speaking of daughters, is it just my imagination, or does Spitzer’s choice have the same physical attributes as his own daughters? I saw picture of them - long hair, leggy, etc. Not meaning to get perverted or twisted here, just something to ponder.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1319 hrs

Would you rather your daughter was a happy prostitute or a depressed banker (or school teacher or whatever)? Why?

That is a very good question. I had to ponder it. I would be interested in hearing other father’s answers. My stance on prostitution being demeaning leads me to believe that it is not possbile to be truly happy as a ho. I believe it takes a certain lack of self respect to prostitute yourself. If you are unhappy as a teacher you still can have yourself respect and find happiness. I would prefer my daughter to be an unhappy banker working on becoming happy than be a happy hooker. (If she was a hooker her mother and I would make her unhappy).

I answered your question now answer mine. If you could make enough money that you consider yourself wealthy and work half as much as you do know would you be a prostitute? (Your clients aren’t going to look like Ms. Dupre). Why?

Honor, morals, ethics all have malleable definition. I brought up the ethicist because he seems to default to the most socially acceptable answers to these difficult questions. I would be willing to wager that most of us agree that prostitution is morally wrong. I might be in the minority with my belief that it is wrong, but should not be illegal.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1351 hrs

I would be willing to wager that most of us agree that prostitution is morally wrong.

why is it morally wrong?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1358 hrs

I have two daughters and I would very unhappy if they became hookers. I think it is morally wrong, however, to paraphase George Carlin, why is sex legal to give away but illegal to buy? We will never stop it, so I would rather regulate it and tax the heck out of it. I know this in contrary to the conservative view point, and I am sure there are other issues, where my stance would be different. I feel the same way about drugs. Society spends all of this money trying to stop it and nothing happens, we just get more crime associated with it. If we take to profit out of it, maybe we will see good results. What we are doing now sure is not working, especially with drugs.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1402 hrs

why is it morally wrong?

Acting as someones ejaculate receptacle is not right and is not good.

I am not a philosopher, a linguist or a Clinton. I am not going to try and define something as malleable as “moral”. What is the definition of “good”?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1422 hrs

This is why protect your personal information on Internet is so important.
Posted by squidoo.com/personalInformation on March 14, 2008 at 1447 hrs

Well if you can’t tell me why its wrong, then why is it wrong?

I mean if I punch you in the face… that’s wrong. Its wrong because I’m hurting you.

But I had this debate in my philosophy class in college and honestly, I’ve never had anyone give me a good answer on why prostitution is wrong.

Now I’ve never used one, Fortunately I’ve always been able to acquire my sexual pleasure for free. I hope that is always the case, but who knows…

I’m not prepared to call it wrong until I have a reason why. Help me out here.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1452 hrs

I could be totally off base here, but I just feel that it is morally wrong because it is supposed to be an act of love between a man and a women (would it be more PC to say between two people?). When you treat sex as a barter exchange as you would buying any other commodity, I believe that it diminishes the act itself. This is just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth. I am sure other people could provide a better answer to this than me. Good question though
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1501 hrs

xxpilot, if you had a daughter and she came home one day from college at 19 and said i’m dropping out of college and becoming a hooker, what would be your response?

Also - if you happen to glance through the Bible please read Exodus Chapter 20 verse 14.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1503 hrs

it is supposed to be an act of love between a man and a women (would it be more PC to say between two people?). When you treat sex as a barter exchange as you would buying any other commodity, I believe that it diminishes the act itself.

I just don’t know how we get to that as a starting point. Sex being an act of love between 2 people. Who says that’s what it is? For me, hugging and kissing is an act of love too, but then again, in other countries kissing is a greeting.

Genetially sex is just the method in which creatures procreate. Where does the love part come in?

I mean husbands and wives fall out of love all the time and sex is not an act of love anymore, but just a physical desire.

I’m quite certain that there can be an emotional component to sex, but there is also a physiological component.

When a guy masterbates, I’m quite certain that isn’t an act of love but a physiological satisfaction.

I don’t know… Really all I’ve ever come up with is that the only real basis of prostitution being wrong is in religious doctrine.

Being agnostic, religious doctrine, in and of itself, isn’t enough for me to call something wrong.

Physical pleasure is physical pleasure. You can go pay for a massage, thats physical pleasure. But you can’t pay for a happy ending, that’s illegal.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1518 hrs

My statements above all have to do with personal belief about respecting your own body and not allowing others to violate it for a fee. Morally I feel that is wrong. You can disagree and morally have no problem with that. In my view the definition of issues like self respect, honor and morality are all self imposed and a matter of opinion. We all have a right to our opinion, and we should state our opinion when it is appropriate. If we all had the same respect for eachothers opinion the world would be a better place.

Unfortunately some of us think our morals are superior to others and feel the need to impose them. As long as someone is not harming anyone else no one has a right to impose their morality on someone else.

Is that as clear as mud?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1519 hrs

BTW - I came to my beliefs without any religous upbringing. I was raised by an agnostic and an atheist. When it comes to theology I considered myself a Unitarian Universalist.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1523 hrs

I guess I look at sex differently, than you do. You are right that much of it is due to religion. I respect your views and would never impose my morality on you or anyone else. But isn’t all morality based somewhat on religion?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1529 hrs

Also - if you happen to glance through the Bible please read Exodus Chapter 20 verse 14.

Well that works great for christians, but what about other religions. What about people who aren’t religious. What makes it wrong for them.

xxpilot, if you had a daughter and she came home one day from college at 19 and said i’m dropping out of college and becoming a hooker, what would be your response?

Well that’s the problem here isn’t it.. I don’t really have a good response. I don’t have any children (that I know of) so I’m just hoping that between now and if that ever happens that I can come up with a good answer for her. If she’s my daughter, chances are “cause I said so” isn’t going to be a good enough answer and she’ll want to know why.

But I’ll be completely honest…

I’ll use my younger sisters as an example because they are the closest thing I have to the protective feelings that a father would have for his daughters.

If my sister (who is 20) came up to me and said “Some guy offered me 5 million dollars cash to sleep with him and he’s kinda cute but I’m not in love with him and I am thinking of doing it”

I wouldn’t try to talk her out of it!
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1530 hrs

But isn’t all morality based somewhat on religion?

Not for me. I was raised 7th Day Adventist, but now consider myself agnostic. In part because I’ve had to ask myself over time what do I KNOW is right and wrong.

I KNOW its wrong to hurt someone else physically. Its wrong because they don’t want to be hurt. That’s an easy one. Well except football and ultimate fighting, then its ok to hurt someone because you mutually agree on it.

I also know that emotionally, sometimes you hurt someone and its not your fault. Ex. you break up with a girl because you know you aren’t in love with her, and she’s hurt by that. So I hurt her, but its not wrong and its not my fault. I was doing the right thing.

In other cases, if you lie to a girl and she is hurt when she finds out the truth, then that hurt I am responsible for because it wouldn’t have happened if I was truthful.

For me, that’s morality. So I don’t lie, I don’t hurt people usually that don’t want to engage in that.

But then you get these moral issues like prostitution.

I’ve never paid for sex, more because I want the money more than I want the sex, and I can get sex for free, but what about a guy who’s really ugly and can’t get laid.

Man I have to be honest, If I couldn’t find a girl to sleep with me, I bet after a few years of masterbation, I’d probably start thinking about paying a girl to sleep with me. And I really don’t think there is anything wrong with that.

if she’s cool with it, I’m cool with it.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1539 hrs

“But isn’t all morality based somewhat on religion.”

No. Morality is mostly based on a moral instinct. You actually have it backwards. Religion is often based on morality. When people make up religions, they often do so to answer the kinds of questions we’re trying to answer here. They can’t come up with good answers to these “why” questions so they invent gods. It’s not really much different than when we couldn’t answer questions about why the sun rises and sets. We made up gods to answer the"why.” But science will have a harder time telling us why prostitution is wrong—if it is.
Posted by jesusisjustalrightwithme on March 14, 2008 at 1540 hrs

jijarwm,
that is exactly where i started to wander into my agnostic beliefs.

couple of my friends died and the things people would say… the justification for their deaths that people gave it was clear to me that religion was something people use to explain things they can’t comprehend.

This is not to say that I don’t believe in something. I’m sure there is ‘something’. i just don’t see that the story christianity has wrapped up for us is the big picture.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 14, 2008 at 1616 hrs

Who cares who the girl is… for christ sakes, we knew she would be statistically amusing… let her character and her charisma have a chance to show that being a hooker is not a crime…. who did she hurt(other than herself, it is not the gov’t responsibility to protect us from ourselves)? If she is collecting any sort of public assistance… gut her like a deer and feed to some turkeys… america is not only overstepping the constitution by throwing her name to the media, but for any sort of charges. When I was her ages screwing up my credit… where was the gov’t to protect me? I should sue the gov’t for not protecting me from myself… just like hookers and drug addicts… they should not be charged for anything, until they take aways some one else right at obtaining happiness. Happiness is not a right, but an earned privilege. The media is the guilty party of publicizing this garbage as if it was quality… you the mass consumers, to lazy to research, take this as legit facts… how twisted our gov’t and our media has become…. The only people that hate money and claim it to be the root of all evil… are the ones that don’t know how to be productive and earn it.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 0253 hrs

Don’t assume everything posted in her name online is hers. She took down her MySpace yesterday and there are several others in her name already. Some people will do anything for a cheap thrill, even impersonating someone. And there is way too much moralizing in here. I say go girl, make as much money as you can.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 0336 hrs

Great discussion here, but I find it ironic that a man with the name jesusisjustalrightwithme is giving prostitution an ok and arguing that fact. I also found Jason “call me Jesus” used his “own name” in vain. Although the conversation was great had to laugh at the irony.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 0407 hrs

I’m replying to the person who said that someone like Dupre can get away with being a bitch because she’s beautiful. Isn’t that just the laws of nature? Wouldn’t I want to have sex with a hot girl, so that I could pass my genes on to a child who would be as attractive as possible? For some of those girls it is completely effortless, but for many it requires hours of work in the gym, something an ugly girl couldn’t motivate or commit them self to. Animals don’t consider the intelligence of a possible mate, why should we be different? Because we’re so intelligent? Right… are we any more happy than any other creature?
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 0410 hrs

At xxpilot. Your very close to your own answers.

It is an combination of Psychology and emotion.

If you want to know why something is wrong or right, put yourself in the position of the person in question.
You do actually, but only in the most positive way.

When you spoke of your sister, you immediatly thought of she found someone cute(she likes, she is interested and the money is not important really) who wanted to pay for her.
And there is your flaw.

I will give you an example :

Put yourself in the position of a general hooker. Let’s create a very real situation.

You have 2 men walking past you on the street, one attractive young man and an unclean perverted man who has not bathed in a week. I don’t say ugly, cause that is a highly subjective term. He is wearing the same clothes for a month.

Intermezzo :

This usually means that person has some mental problems.
One of the things we get a good feeling from is when we clean ourselfs up. (thought by parents ? i don’t think so, it is an inner desire). This guy doesn’t , makes you think about it no ?

Who would you pick ? (here lies 1 of the answers, it is not your choice, love is about freedom, about choice, about willing to love someone as you choose. Because of the freedom of choice, you can feel you can trust someone and feel save with her/him.)

Intermezzo :

Ask women who where forced to do things they did not wanted to do. There answers will explain my statement about love.

Let’s continue.

But you are a hooker, that generally means you are not the one making the choice. This can be stressfull to your unconsious mind depending on the situation. And this is such a situation.

The young man is not interested and your only chance to make money is to sleep with the stinky pervert.

If you would do it, what would it do to your mind, your spirit, your soul ? You are changing yourself , giving up your psychological freedom. That may sound strange but it is very real. You are free in your own mind. But when you start to degrade yourself, your thoughts will hunt you. If you are so “lucky” by nature(genetics) thay your thoughts will <b>not hunt you ,you are usually a person who has no or low moral standards anyway. A very dangerous person indeed.

Intermezzo :

Now, i know that for instance in times of war(good example), you have to put your morals aside. But when you don’t have to fight no more, you have some serious problems to deal with when you return to “normal” live. And one person does it better then another person. Veterans anyone ?

Let’s get back to the hooker scenario.

When your thoughts do hunt you
, usually you end up doing drugs or using excessive amounts of alcohol. Pick your own choice for an unhealthy hobby.

Is it not funny that this is usually the case. And for those who say that most hookers started hooking because of addiction, can you not say they are already haunted by there own thoughts from what ever demons they have in theirs past.

That is what keeps most humans in check, the unwanted feelings and emotions haunting you in your mind when you do something you didn’t want to do. When you give in your no longer the person you really are and therefore by definition unhappy.

Now one can be unhappy about many things, but let’s define unhappy here as “when i had the chance i would choose differently” or ” i wish i was never…”.

About religion for the religious people:

I am not religious in the common way. And although i have done unholy things myself i am glad to say that i found my path in live again. I had to learn before i understood.
And i am gratefull since i can still make a change. Maybe even for other people too.

The true nature of religion is to give people hope when live seems usuless and senseless.

We are born with more then the 10 rules inprinted in our dna. When you do not follow them you are unhappy by nature.

Going to church does not mean anything , follow your “heart”.
We are born with a desire to grow , to evolve. That is our nature too.
I am said to say , that a sociëty is build by honest hard work, and torn down by corruption. This is the result of what i just wrote above.

I am said to say to many individuals use the power of religion for their own interests.

When you think of heaven or hell, Let’s just say that when you die, the world in your own mind becomes your reality.

Let’s also say that people have an common way of thinking.

You understand now i hope…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 0623 hrs

When you spoke of your sister, you immediatly thought of she found someone cute(she likes, she is interested and the money is not important really) who wanted to pay for her.

That’s not really what I said (or meant if it came off wrong)

Lets change the scenario. Lets say my sister came up to me and said she went on spring break to new york and was walking down wall street with her friends and some old guy who was an investment banker who she was not attracted to a took a liking to her and offered her 5 million to sleep with him. She wouldn’t do it for 10,000 or even 100,000 but for 5 million. She says yes. If I was her, I’d do the same.

Whats better (morally) sleeping with a guy you meet at a club who is a good dancer and wants to go home with you for one night, or sleeping with a guy for 5 million dollars because you know how much financial security that will bring to your life.

Seems to me that sleeping with a guy for 5 million dollars has a better moral justification.

Lets up the ante. Lets say our mom needs a life-saving operation that insurance won’t pay for. It costs 5 million dollars. It is morally wrong for her to barter sex for money so that she could pay for the operation?

Let’s get back to the hooker scenario.

You spent a great deal of time writing a thought out response, but I still think you make a great amount of assumptions that you can’t be sure of.

Sure some hookers are addicted. But what about the high-class hooker that isn’t addicted to anything (chemically) She just wants to make money the easy way.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 0830 hrs

Ah, my friend ..

You forget it is all about free will and when your choice is not harming another person or yourself with that choice. When you violate that simple rule it is wrong.

“Whats better (morally) sleeping with a guy you meet at a club who is a good dancer and wants to go home with you for one night, or sleeping with a guy for 5 million dollars because you know how much financial security that will bring to your life.”

It’s her free choice.

I am making the bold assumption right now that there is not a young woman out there who wished she did not go with that one particular guy because of the aftermath went bad.

An example :

It is a little bit popular again to stay virgin till you get married. As a guy (and i am honest) i am not happy.
But when it serves a greater good… You see, less
diseases. And i am not talking about hiv. I am talking about the silent ones that give you cancer in the end or creates birth defects when you and your girl are ready to have children. That is just the fysical part.

Now for the emotional part.
Also when 2 people truly know eachother and do not just lust eachother, the relationship has a better fundament to last.
The “in love” part of being together in a relationship has cycles you know. You have to refresh it.
And you can only refresh it when you know someone.
(This is to shed some light about taking guys or girls home.)

The woman dupre, i do not know here story. And i do not know her past. So i can not know her motives.
I read some heresay but i can not make an assumption based on that.

And to come back to your hypothetical sister (no offense) scenario. If she chooses voluntarely and she is able to live with that discision all her live there is no problem. At least you think that would you.

If that rich man is repulsive she has to put aside everything she values to sleep with him. I am not going to go in gore details but let just say she has to do some pervert things that would make here stomach turn.
Every time she spends the money or comes home to the house she bought she has to think of it.

Conscious or subconscious. In time you can live with it but you will never be the same. Put a lot of people like that together and you have our every day live. If they where not working everyday to keep their mind of things, i am afraid what would happen to all those people. Blessed are the innocent indeed.

OK a scenario with you as the main character.

We call this 1.
Let’s change the situation to a scenario where it is more easy to put yourself in. A very rich man wants to have sex with you, you wil be his “wife” and he will pay you. Will you do it ? Even if it would stay a secret ?
Why ?

We call this 2.
But let’s make it more easy, the man will sleep with you an it will be on television. All your friends and your family will know.
You will be the 5 million dollar male prostitute.

Would you still do it ?
Why or why not ?

And here we come to the point. In case 1. you have to live with it.

In case 2 you have to live with it and you will have to face other people as well. If it where up to me, the other people i can face. But i can not live with myself. (No offense to homosexual people)

Most people would rather have peace of mind and be happy with themselves when they look into the mirror.

As i sad, your mind can be heaven or hell. And you will not have to die to live in it.

Religions preach this. The words are however twisted to serve the personal interests of people.

Every religion preaches this cause there is your path to enlightment.

Have you not found out that it is difficult or less easy to learn when you are carrying a burden. Something that troubles you ? You must have regrets, we all do. And they are like chaines.

To give my own opinion.
I can not even put myself thinking of having sex with an 80 year old lady. She might be really nice person to be with but that just disguists me. Same goes for children.
Sane people have natural boundaries.

I know talking about moral is difficult because a large part is programmed inside us through genetics.

part 2 is coming.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1206 hrs

part2 (to much writing)

The mother situation , it happens all the time…

In poor countries mothers and sisters and sometimes brothers sell their body to put food on the table.

Is it morally just, yes because they are acting from altruistic motives. But then again they are sacrificing themselves for someone they love when it is not really necessary(if others would help her) .

So although the reason is just , the practical version of the descision is wrong but she/he has no choice. And there lies the problem.

The sociëty judges a woman in doing so but offers at the same time no help to put food on her table or put her children to school, so she will not have to sell her body.
Not even a job. ( and i do not mean a job 900 miles further with the bus every single day for almost no pay).

Then again i wonder and ask you what is morally more wrong, the woman selling her body, or the sociëty letting her children starve while other people are sick because they eat to much all their lives…

So we come back to our basic inprinted rules and instincts.

Altruistic is one of them. Egoistic too.

Then we come down to balance ying yang…

I am curious for your answers.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1207 hrs

I wll just answer to this statement you made :

“Man I have to be honest, If I couldn’t find a girl to sleep with me, I bet after a few years of masterbation, I’d probably start thinking about paying a girl to sleep with me. And I really don’t think there is anything wrong with that.

if she’s cool with it, I’m cool with it.”

I might be wrong , feel free to correct me.

Most addictive drugs trigger the same part of you brain while having sex and having an orgasm.

Sex is addictive to we all know. Once you had a piece of the pie you want more. The thing with drugs is , that you have to take your mind of it. With sex it is the same. And i hope you will live a full and loving life, but sex without love tends to get boring. You need more and more extreme ways to satisfy yourself. And sometimes just sitting on the couch cuddling can not be replaced with paying someone you don’t feel anything for. So you will hunger for that too.

Extrapolate as you like but…

That is not a pleaseant forsight.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1235 hrs

Would you still do it ?
Why or why not ?

Well I often tell my friends that “everything” has a price.

You bring up several scenarios and I’ll just touch on a couple, and I think my answer will be applicable, or indicate what my answer would be on others.

Would I sleep with an 80 year old lady. No

Would I sleep with her for a million dollars. Yes

Would I sleep with her on national TV for a million dollars… eh… probably not.

10 million… maybe.

Every day I go to work I know that I only have a certain amount of life to live, and I know that time I spend working is not as enjoyable as time spent with my loved ones (friends family) but I make that sacrifice for money.

I guess my point is that to me, the act of sex is not the same for everyone, and if people can emotionally detach from some sex… Hey… Whatever works for them.

If a hooker can detach enough emotionally to have sex, I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. Inherently, I think males don’t have quite the same emotional connection to sex, so its easy for them to detach.

Back to another scenario. I wouldn’t give up my eyesight for ANY amount of money. Not for a billion dollars. It just wouldn’t be worth it. I would never be able to get the enjoyment out of life, the money would be meaningless.

Back to prostitution. Again. I could never say it was wrong for a girl to use her body for money. I know that for me, there are things that are right and things that are wrong, and ‘almost’ everything has a price.

Just like i hear people saying “oh girls that have abortions will suffer mental anguish later in life” I don’t think they can say that.

You seem to indicate that prostitution is wrong because every girl who would sell her body for money would have emotional fallout. I don’t think that’s the case. I don’t think we can presume that.

I will say that I think that I can buy an arguement that prostitution is wrong if a prostitute knowingly sleeps with a married guy because she is contributing to hurting someone else (the guys wife) some people wash their hands of obligations like that and think its not their responsibility to worry about someone elses situation.

But again, I just can’t say that a girl trading sex or sexual favors to a guy for money is inherently wrong in every case.

Sure there are some where it is, but for other reasons than the sex act.

Back to a previous example, I can go get a massage. That’s paying for physical pleasure. But if I pay for a happy ending, that’s illegal and people would consider it a form of prostitution.

What makes paying for some form of physical pleasure legit, but paying for other forms of physical pleasure morally wrong?

And what is the difference in emotional fallout for a girl who just gives massage using her hands and getting paid for it. If there is no emotional fallout from that. If that is morally acceptable, then why one step further her using her hands to give him a happy ending different emotional fallout? I don’t think it is??? She’s not even having sex?

I’ll twist that scenario some more. What if a guy is stimulated just from massage and can acheive an orgasm without the girl being aware, or even making contact with his penis. (I’m not sure its physically possible to orgasm without any direct contact, but whatever) Is that immoral???

Whats immoral about an orgasm? What qualifiers does an orgasm have to have to make it moral? Does it have to be with someone you love? Someone you are married to? Someone you have a stated non-descript verbal commitment to?

I just don’t think there is an answer to this question. I just don’t think anyone can throw out a blanket statement that “prostitution is wrong” universally.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1243 hrs

Sex is addictive to we all know. Once you had a piece of the pie you want more.

Working out is addictive. I’m a bodybuilder. I can tell you I am physically addicted to working out. I love it. It makes me feel fantastic.

Runners will tell you the same thing.

Whats wrong with addictions like this? Drugs have physical side affects. These ‘natural highs’ the body seems to respond well to without side affects.

And i hope you will live a full and loving life, but sex without love tends to get boring.

Perhaps, but no sex tends to get boring too.

And sometimes just sitting on the couch cuddling can not be replaced with paying someone you don’t feel anything for. So you will hunger for that too.

Absolutely. Know the feeling well.

I’m only 33, single, never married, and I’ve actually gotten to points in my bachelor life when I was sick of sex. I got over it after a month or two, but everything ebbs and flows.

In my mind I think of how fantastic a committed relationship that gets deep into emotional areas would be so stimulating, but then again, thats a single guy who’s longest relationships have been about 2 years talking.

I’ve got married friends that say “come talk to me after 15 years and we’ll see how you feel about how great just one partner for the rest of your life is” (for the record I also have friends that have been married for 15 years that say its everything they ever wanted)

Again, everyone is different.

Back to prostitution, I can’t call prostitution “wrong” in every situation. I just can’t find the logic in that.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1252 hrs

Unless I missed it, I did not see anyone here refer to the fact that prostitution is a very dangerous “profession”. A recent article stated that the murder rate for prostitutes is very high. She may have thought it safer to work for a so-called exclusive agency, but the dangers are just the same. The circumstances that lead women to do this are tragic. They are vulnerable individuals who really do need to stop and think about the hazards of what they are doing and get out of that lifestyle. If you haven’t seen it, I recommend reading Ann Rule’s GREEN RIVER RUNNING RED, about the murders of over 48 young women, some as young as 15, in Washington State, by Gary Ridgway, convicted in 2001 and in prison for 48 life sentences. Tragic.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1343 hrs

“Would I sleep with an 80 year old lady. No

Would I sleep with her for a million dollars. Yes”

ew.
No seriously, i am yoking.

We live in a world where money seems to be all that matters.
You already wrote that you are not willing to sacrifice everything for money.

“Every day I go to work I know that I only have a certain amount of life to live, and I know that time I spend working is not as enjoyable as time spent with my loved ones (friends family) but I make that sacrifice for money. “

Ah yes, but you work anyway, And does it not give you pleasure when you can buy that toy for your nephew or neese and see how happy they are with it.
Or you help your family out. Always fun.
There is your altruisim again. Gratitude is very powerfull.
You would give up your eyesight if it meant saving the lives of your loved ones.

But only when there is balance…

Maybe it’s me but i do not feel good about the emotionally detaching. It gives great strenght as it can comsume you as well.

And to be honest, if i was able to choose, i rather stay in a relation with 1 woman for the rest of my life then meeting new women everytime wondering if she will be the one i am searching for. The latter may sound exciting but i am a problerm solver and not a problem dweller. But then again
i have not a choice but to do what’s best and be honest.
And everyone is different yes, but we have all an common way of thinking(exceptions are there yes )

As i think of it, morality is also a large part of ones philosofy of how to live life.

So morality is defined by ones personal interests ,
Ones philosofy of live.
Ones genetic make up.
How other people look at you.

Let’s make a list about what defines morality.

And please don’t say anything has a price.

If i would hold a gun to the head of someone important to you and ask how much money do i have to pay you for you to be ok with me killing that person, may i truly hope that you would not even consider that thought.

When you speak as price a a metaphore i understand when you are thinking as in sacrifices…

Ah, i just came up with a nice scenario :

Picture this,
You meet a young woman who you feel is perfect, you want to marry her but she does not want to. Later you break up.
Reason is not important.

Later in your lonely live you decide to go see a hooker. and it turned out to be her.
Would you still be able to sleep with her for money?
I guess she would not want to sleep with you.
But she needs the money.

As an old friend i am sure you would be willing to help.
But she doesn’t accept unless she does here “work” with you.
Would you still be able to sleep with her for money?

It’s about how you see other people and yourself.

“I’ll twist that scenario some more. What if a guy is stimulated just from massage and can acheive an orgasm without the girl being aware, or even making contact with his penis. (I’m not sure its physically possible to orgasm without any direct contact, but whatever) Is that immoral???”

I can do better then that and give a real life example.
When one of my ex collegas was in an islamic country,
That particular part of the country was a bit on the heavy orthodox old idiot values side of the islam. Same as some of our cristian or catolics are. We are all humans.
There was a tourist woman there. 1 of the islamitc people there, a man got an erection and ejaculated without touching himself. The stain in his “dress” ( i do not know how it is called) was pretty obvious. Just by looking and i guess living a fantasy about the woman in his mind . Is that wrong ?
No. But what is wrong is shielding people from eachother . And that is what is happening there. And they to have prostitution lot’s of it. So freedom is good yes as long as you not abuse it. And i feel prostitution is among other things abusing freedom. You could go out and meet people, you could make the fire alive again with your wife. But no, you take the easy way out. That’s how it must be seen. Because the first and the second case give you inner joy and the latter does not.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1426 hrs

I think prostitution is not a solution. Because it is practised by people who need money and have no other options.
Because the visitors are people who seek love and sex and only get sex.
And because woman who have much more abilities degrade themselves in doing so. But in our sociëty woman are still less then man.

I for one welcome more women do technical work .
And see a change in the market, it is happening.
I just meant to say a mixed enviroment of man and women helps make life easier. Cause then even the people who are alone and who are not confident with themselves get a chance to meet other people and that greatly amplies the chance of finding someone special. Plus then i don’t have to pump some people full with hope to make them ask that lady or gentlemen out. I always say : “You better try and gain certainty then live in doubt all your lives”.

You see, there is no easy answer to live because every aspect of live is entangled together with another aspect of live.

“Working out is addictive. I’m a bodybuilder. I can tell you I am physically addicted to working out. I love it. It makes me feel fantastic.

Runners will tell you the same thing.”

The endorphines yes…

I fully agree, i have been there myself many times.

These naturals highs are their for a reason. They make you feel alive without doing crazy things.

And how funny.
I am turning 34 soon.

33 is some kind of funny number.
Look it up…

I forgot one thing to mention.
Selforganisation.
If you pack a lot of humans together you can see us as 1 big organism.
In nature self organisation is pretty common in organisms.

In “our “self organisation, morality is a big plus.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1427 hrs

At thinker, it is not unusuall to think that when you pay for something you actually own it.

When one payes a prostitute, he might think he owns her too. And he can do with her what ever he wants.

That comes down again to how one sees himself and sees other people. To xxpilot, think about that…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1435 hrs

I forget about why this gall in particular choose to be a escort girl.

Is there any thing known about her or why ?
Not for gossip but more to understand.

To defend the women who choose this job and seem to live a rich live before entering this profession:

I know from some criminal sources that some girls become escort for the easy money but once there in they cannot get out that easily for various reasons. And then they wish they never…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1445 hrs

oh shut the heck up all a ya !!!

YA GO GIRL ASH….STRIKE WHILE THE IRON IS HOT….

SIMPLE AS THAT !!!!! LUCKY YOU !
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 15, 2008 at 1924 hrs

Would you rather your daughter was a happy prostitute or a depressed banker (or school teacher or whatever)? Why?

I would rather my daughter was a happy whatever and that she have sufficient self-respect to decide that there are things that she would not do for money. This question poses a false dilemma.

I have daughters. I would be shocked and appalled if any of them decided that the best way to make a living would be to act as a human Kleenex. I would be even more appalled if they suggested that it somehow made them happy.

Sophists can cast doubt on all societal norms. The rest of us draw on centuries of human experience. Throughout history, people have realized that this kind of bahavior is not good for society and not good for the people involved. While historical norms cannot be our sole guide, because norms have at times been wrong (e.g., slavery), they are a pretty good starting point. Those who want to discard those norms should bear the burden of demonstrating how they are wrong rather than burdening the rest of us with constantly re-proving their merit.

If you want to legalize prostitution, give us a pretty damned good reason.
Posted by Crocodile Cage on March 17, 2008 at 1143 hrs

If you want to legalize prostitution, give us a pretty damned good reason.

Well I wasn’t talking about legal vs. illegal, cause I thought that was a no brainer.

I was talking about right vs. wrong and calling it wrong.

Its easy for people to say ‘its wrong for me’ and ‘its wrong for my family’ but for someone else. Hey… Have at it.

Legal vs. Illegal, that’s a no brainer.

it should be legal because sex in any other circumstance is not a crime. Women can cheat on their husbands, that’s no crime. Men can cheat on their wives, thats no crime..

Women can marry a guy for his money… No crime… Women can marry old rich guys that they surely can’t be physically attracted to. No crime..

But oh my god, buy an orgasm… go to jail…

Sophists can cast doubt on all societal norms. The rest of us draw on centuries of human experience. Throughout history, people have realized that this kind of bahavior is not good for society and not good for the people involved

You mean in America… I undestand many other countries centuries of human experience has not come up with the same result on many levels. We are pretty uptight here when it somes to nudity, sex, etc.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 17, 2008 at 1214 hrs

If you want to legalize prostitution, give us a pretty damned good reason.

No matter how hard we try we will never be able to stop prostitution. If it is regulated properly it will be safer for everyone involved. Same principle applies to the prohibition of some drugs.

It is an absurd legal argument that makes the “performance” of sex for money legal in the case of pornography, but the “act” of sex for money is illegal in the case of prostitution.
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 17, 2008 at 1323 hrs

In my country prostitution is sort of legalized. But after 7 years it is very clear that it will never be an honest and safe living. The point is that women with no legal citizen status come to my country to earn some money. They have no choice but to make money in this way. Since they are not legal, they end up in the undergournd scene. And situations can get very nasty indeed. A prostitute is never seen as a human being just as a thing to satisfy yourself with. To do that to a human being in a civilized world, what would animals or anything else for that matter mean to you ?
The only women that i knew that liked to be treated as a thing , had a rather bad child hoodhistory. And in the end they really did not liked it. But it was just a part of them and that’s how they lived with it, to undergo it over and over again. I wish the medic world had away of erasing your memory just for those sad people. They would have a lot happier live.

The point is that the whole act is not really the problem. It is more the whole thing around it.

And in the US , i find it to be very disturbing that a sex industry can exist as large as it does in the US. And at the same time make so much fuzz when there is a nude woman on television. I rather see respectfull nude then porn.

And the dupre woman, I hope she has better skills then singing because even the computation power at this moment could not recalculate her recorded voice to sound right…

yuk…

I hope she has any normal skills at all…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 20, 2008 at 1453 hrs

Forgive my typing errors. I am in a hurry…
Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on March 20, 2008 at 1455 hrs

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Ashley Alexandra Dupre

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