Abortionist Murdered

This is disgusting.

A prominent US abortion doctor has been shot dead at a church in Wichita, in his home state of Kansas.

Sixty-seven year-old George Tiller was killed just after 1000 (1500 GMT) at the Reformation Lutheran Church.

It looks like they caught the thug.  Throw the book…

1. I have to admit that I am torn.
   For the murderer, yes, throw the book at him- no sympathy.
   But on the other hand, George Tiller is about the most evil person on the face of the earth.  He was one of the few abortion providers that actually enjoyed doing abortions.  He was very prolific and he killed a lot of babies that otherwise could have been born by doing late term abortions.
   So, in my mind, both the murderer and Tiller are both evil and the world is a better place that Tiller is no longer providing the abortions.  I just wish he had retired or closed down instead of being murdered because no he will be the martyr of the abortion movement.

   Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2009 at 1745 hrs




2. Not saying that murdering the man was the right thing to do, but..

   I’m not exactly shedding a tear for the man either.  He was unrepentent and he his receiving his true judgement now.

   Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2009 at 1806 hrs




3. Wow, and here I thought only Randall Terry would be so disgusting as to post sentiments like that.  Good to know that Dan’s keeping him company.

   It might behoove you to look around the internet and read a few of the many stories that have surfaced from those who knew Dr. Tiller, those whose babies were delivered by him, those who he helped with adoptions, etc.  You can think whatever you want of abortion, but certainly there is much about Dr. Tiller that everyone can rejoice in.  It’s not like the guy’s whole practice was built around late-term abortions.

   I think late-term abortions are a pretty disgusting thing too, but I guess I have a much less utilitarian view of the sanctity of life than you.  That anyone in society would be morally conflicted about a guy getting murdered in a church simply because they don’t like his line of work makes me grieve a little for the nation we’ve become.

   Posted by Recess Supervisor on May 31, 2009 at 1816 hrs




4. “Line of work”??

   The guy was an late-term abortionist.

   And what was he doing in church of all places? 

   The shooter should have the book thrown at him, but I have zero sympathy for the abortionist.

   Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2009 at 1904 hrs




5. I guess I’d second Greg’s sentiment here—“line of work?”

   “Mob Boss” is a line of work.  So is “hitman.”  Some people even make their living manufacturing child pornography.  And delivering some babies, being a good father, and serving on the church council doesn’t offset the evil perpetrated by Dr. Tiller as an ongoing and lucrative business enterprise, year after year.

   Now, I don’t think that we should live in a society where people walk into church and butcher each other, for any reason.  And I think justice should be meted out to the killer in this case.  No question.

   On the other hand, I guess what disturbs me about the society we live in is that the likes of the Recess Supervisor—someone who sat in a Republican office in the state Legislature and helped to make public policy—can chalk up the practice of punching holes in the heads of babies and draining their brains out as a “line of work,” on the same par with “schoolteacher” or “mechanic,” and can find in the life’s work of a fellow like that things we can “all celebrate.”

   You know, the BTK Killer was, by all accounts, a nice guy.  Good family man.  Devoted father.  Member of his church council.  There was just one little problem—he’d occasionally go out and torture and murder innocent victims for kicks.  Of course, BTK is now in prison.  If he is murdered there, I wonder if the Recess Supervisor could find in the life of the BTK Killer “things we can all celebrate?”  It’s that kind of moral relativism that is ruining America—not folks who look at the odious Dr. Tiller and find themselves thinking that there may be some bizarre, regrettable justice to the way this man met his end today:  In church—while profaning God by saying the “Our Father” and communing for forgiveness when he intended to walk right back out the door and drain some baby’s brains out for profit, and revel in it.

   Sorry to say it, but once in a great while, the death of a particular person actually improves the world in some way.  Saddam Hussein.  Adolf Hitler.  Jeffrey Dahmer.  I think that one can be forgiven for thinking that Dr. Tiller fits into that category, even if one abhors the way in which he died.

   Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2009 at 1942 hrs




6. Actually, his “line of work” was providing theraputic abortions to women who wanted children but, for whatever reason, could not successfully carry their current pregnancies to term.  Hundreds of women went on to give birth because he saved their lives or their fertility.

   But y’all just keep on believing what you want ...

   Posted by folkbum on May 31, 2009 at 1949 hrs




7. folkbum, do you have any sources on what this guy actually did, as opposed to made up crap by people with an agenda? I’d like to know what you mean, in more detail.

   Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2009 at 2017 hrs




8. Well, ATV, teh google is a lot tougher to use today on this topic, sadly.  However, there are plenty of first-person accounts like this one that are popping up.

   Posted by folkbum on May 31, 2009 at 2037 hrs




9. When issues like this get boiled down to black and white things like this will happen. I recall a few years back when I had the ability and patience to listen to the screaming, ranting four year old on Milwaukee am radio in the PM, there was a reference to Sen. Russ Feingold as a “baby killer.”

   More or less this has to be laid on the doorstep of some, but not all, of the right wing media.

   Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2009 at 2049 hrs




10. I wonder about people who question Dr. Tiller’s (or anybody’s) presence in church. Is your church only for one kind of people? Are sinners not allowed in your church? Is another man’s relationship with God something you feel emboldened to comment upon? Who profanes God with prayer? Quiet your anger; say a prayer if you’re so moved.

    Posted by Mike on May 31, 2009 at 2050 hrs




11. Rather pitiful commentary on both sides of this issue.

    Line of work? What was he doing in a church?

    Most evil man on earth? What, did Osama die?

    Murders like this set the pro-life movement back 5 years with each incident. Thou shalt not murder. Apparently not straight forward enough for some of my fellow Christians.

    Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2009 at 2137 hrs




12. My point is that Dr. Tiller’s practice encompassed a lot more than performing late-term abortions.  I don’t particularly like that part of his practice, but the fact remains that it is a legal procedure.

    We live in a country of laws.  We may not like all the laws that we have to follow, but we’re required to follow them regardless.  There’s nothing to celebrate about vigilante justice, where people roam free and decide to blow other people away because they personally do not happen to like what another person does for a living.  I don’t care how much you disagree with what a person does for a living, that is never acceptable in an orderly society.

    What disturbs me, Capitol Curmudgeon, is the manner in which you presume that all Republicans apparently have to be of the Glenn Grothman, fetus bumper stickers on cars persuasion to count as being pro-life.  There are lots of us who would never consider abortion nor advocate for it when asked, but don’t believe that it’s our duty to enforce a theological belief on others in a secular democracy.  Let’s not pretend someone as far to the right as you gets to define morality for the rest of us.  You want to beat people over the head with your God, please move to Saudi Arabia.

    I’ve seen the videos with the baby parts and all that.  It kind of comes with the territory when your job is to appease is the pro-life activists.  I sometimes wondered if they noticed the JDRF teddy bear I kept on my desk.  So I get what abortion looks like, but thanks for the description.

    There’s no moral relativism on my part.  Murder is always wrong.  Two wrongs don’t make a right.  If you can find some equivocation in that, let me know.

    It is, however, your crowd that runs around talking how life is so precious and sacred, and then basically shrugs its shoulders when a wackjob pro-lifer offs a doctor performing a controversial yet legal procedure as a portion of his practice.  What you’re pushing is utilitarianism, plain and simple.  That we should shrug our shoulders with indifference because a member of the lunatic fringe killed in cold blood an individual whose profession we take moral umbrage with.  If I object to the death penalty, should I kill those who carry out the government’s wishes?  The death penalty is legal too.

    Some of the comments here are exactly why mainstream Americans think pro-life activists are nuts.  Which is a shame, because most of them are pretty decent people who will find Tiller’s murder appalling.  And John Galt is right, it’s this kind of crap that sets the pro-life cause back years.  Be prepared to suck up another flurry of worthless, NARAL-inspired legislation.

    Posted by Recess Supervisor on May 31, 2009 at 2221 hrs




13. “Some of the comments here are exactly why mainstream Americans think pro-life activists are nuts”

    Yup.

    Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on May 31, 2009 at 2250 hrs




14. And some of the comments by pro abortion advocates also is head shaking.  Considering polls taken recently, more people are against abortions than for, so I don’t think mainstream Americans may be that upset by most comments.

    Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2009 at 0007 hrs




15. I don’t agree with the Tiller’s views or what he did - but he would be welcome at my church.

    Blow the dust off your Bible and read Rom 3:23

    Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2009 at 0007 hrs




16. See, Dan that’s the danger of your comments. Nobody likes abortions; probably almost all people are against abortion. That fact does not justify the actions of the murderer in Wichita, or your comments earlier in this thread.

    Posted by Mike on June 01, 2009 at 0017 hrs




17. OK, let me see if I have his straight…. 

    Late-term Abortionist gets murdered - both sides of abortion debate condemn killing.  I think I’ve got it so far….

    Pro-abortion side says that, even though late term abortions are bad, the Doc was still a nice guy who did some nice things, so we should say good things about him, because he was, you know, a nice guy, even though he aborted many viable fetuses.

    What if his killer turns out to be another all-around nice guy?  Should we say good things about him and not condemn him, because he was a nice guy, even though he killed one guy?

    No.  Abortionists like Dr. Tiller need to be forever condemned for their actions.  There is most certainly NOT “much about Dr. Tiller that everyone can rejoice in”.  I neither rejoiced in his life, nor rejoice in his death.  And his killer needs to face the death penalty.

    Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2009 at 0700 hrs




18. but don’t believe that it’s our duty to enforce a theological belief on others in a secular democracy

    And certain condescending other people (cough) presume to distinguish what IS a theological belief from that which is NOT.

    Therefore, killing preborn babies is not wrong.  Killing post-born MD’s IS wrong.  I suppose that’t the ‘theology of size.’

    Sure.

    Posted by dad29 on June 01, 2009 at 0722 hrs




19. Recess Supervisor, I kinda doubt you would be offering so mild a disapproval of Tiller’s practice if he were a white supremacist instead, and this debate was taking place during a time where segregation was the law of the land.  Aren’t there “things to celebrate” in David Duke’s life?

    Posted by Calvin on June 01, 2009 at 0726 hrs




20. What if his killer turns out to be another all-around nice guy?

    Except he wasn’t.  He has a long history as a terrorist, including jail time for possession of bomb-making materials.

    Posted by folkbum on June 01, 2009 at 0732 hrs




21. For RS and the others here that are claiming that the pro-life crowd are rejoicing in Dr. Tiller’s murder, I beg to differ.  What part of Owen’s “This is disgusting - throw the book at him” did you miss. 

    I, and the other posters here, stated earlier that I don’t condone what the killer did and he needs to be punished to the full extent of the law.  In perusing several of the other right blogosphere sites that I frequent, the sentiment is almost entirely the same.  That doesn’t mean however that we are heartbroke about it either.  But to be honest, Dr Tiller’s murderer set the cause back a few years with his actions.  Now the media and the leftists can paint people who believe that killing viable babies is wrong as whackos.   

    Specifically for the Keiths and such.  Before you throw saintly stones, think back to when all the Kos kids were rejoicing when Tony Snow died of cancer.  Glass houses and all.

    Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2009 at 1121 hrs




22. JJ, there’s disgusting behavior on both sides.  Like you said, certain liberals rolling around in Tony Snow’s death like pigs in slop is a perfect example.  America would be better off without both flavors of idiocy.

    I also would never presume that most pro-lifers would feel conflicted about this.  Many pro-life individuals believe that murder is wrong in all instances as they conceive of it.  Unfortunately, that so many people are out rolling in the slop again (whether it’s here in the comments, or Free Republic, or elsewhere) will inevitably make the entire pro-life community look bad.  Ideological groups are always defined by their worst elements.  It makes for better reading that way.

    I don’t agree with everything David Duke espouses, but certainly on some matters not related to race, I’m sure we have similar opinions.  I likely also share some opinions with MLK, FDR, Reagan, and Hitler, as do you and most everyone else.  It’s one thing to say that people do evil things, and it’s another to say that they’re evil people.  One is a statement based on action, another is a statement of being.  Yes, even mass murderers and serial rapists have usually done some good things in their lives.  And unlike some, I don’t have any compelling need to see these people in black and white.  We see every day that people who are generally considered “good” do some pretty heinous things, and people who are generally considered “bad” occasionally surprise us with their behavior.  That teaches us more about the shortcomings of human judgment than anything.  It should also teach us to judge the action and not the person.

    I’m not going to pretend that I have any idea where guys like George Tiller will spend eternity.  It’s not my job to pass that kind of judgment.  Besides, who among us knows what kind of chat Tiller had with God in those waning moments of his life?  Even the most evangelical among you should recognize that the concepts of repentance and forgiveness are among the cornerstones of the Christian faith.

    Posted by Recess Supervisor on June 01, 2009 at 1147 hrs




23. I have to say, RS, the reaction from typical pro-lifers has been reasonable so far. Of course there are a few whackjobs out there, but I’d avoid falling into the argument hacks make, which is that if you don’t denounce all the whackjobs all the time then you secretly agree with them.

    I understand the ambivalence. Some equate this guy with Hitler, and let’s face it I doubt any of us would mourn deeply if Hitler were murdered.

    That being said, reading the stories of this man’s work, I find it hard to equate him with Hitler or even describe him as evil. It sounds as if the abortions he performed, while awful, often saved a woman’s life or, in even more difficult situations, ended a life that was going to be short and filled with pain.

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish /2009/06/its-so-personal-a-tiller-patient.html#more

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish /2009/06/abortion-is-personal-ii.html#more

    This is what I do not get about pro-lifers, when it comes to late term abortion, they never seem to aknowledge that they always (from what I have read today, and from what my wife tells me, who works at Childrens’ Hospital and who has helped more children than any pro-lifer on this site) involve fetuses with these God-awful health issues. To listen to a pro-lifer, late-term abortions involve women who decide in the 9th month they’re not up for it and go abort their perfectly healthy fetus.

    I for one cannot fathom having such a problem, nor facing this choice. I cannot fathom forcing another set of parents to bring such a baby into the world to face nothing but a short, painful existence.

    There’s also the fact that I cannot reconcile the fervor over the loss of innocent life during an abortion with the lack of interest about innocent lives lost during wars (especially kids), and in the implementation of the death penalty. I don’t see many calls for prayer over the Iraqi, Palestinian or Afghan kids who get blown to bits by our bombs, instead I see glorification of the weapons that did it.

    I’m for the death penalty and hardly anti-war, which is why I can say I’m a consistent realist on all three issues. I can’t say that about the pro-life side.

    And so this is the 1,059th time I’ve debated abortion after telling myself I’d avoid it because it’s pointless.

    Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 01, 2009 at 2032 hrs




24. Yah..Cite Sullivan as an “authority.”

    Look, ATV, your wife can tell you—just ask her—that Childrens’ Hospital can work with preemies from ~22 weeks gestation and bring them home alive and very well, indeed.

    So don’t give us that BS about ‘endangering a life.’

    Posted by dad29 on June 02, 2009 at 1741 hrs




25. After reading the anonymous personal accounts that were in the links that ATV provided to the Sullivan (who is a complete lefty whackjob) information, they defy logic. 
    For instance, someone who really wanted their baby gets pre-eclampsia at 22 weeks, but decides that a lengthy procedure to dilate the cervix so the baby can be killed and dismembered for removal is a better option than labor or an emergency C-Section to give the baby a chance.  Yeah, right.  After 22 weeks, there is no reason to kill the baby. The “save the life of the mother” is a straw man at that point.  Not saying the baby would survive, but an abortion just doesn’t make sense.  Ask any woman who is or has been pregnant with a planned and wanted pregnancy - the scenario described simply would not happen.  By 22 weeks, you are talking to the baby, feeling it kick.  You do NOT decide to dismember it.

    Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 02, 2009 at 2139 hrs




26. Sullivan may be a little self-serving these days, but he also supports the flat tax, opposes single-payer health care, and endorsed Ron Paul, as I recall.  “Lefty whackjob?”  Again, I know it’s easy for you guys to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you on anything and call them a liberal, but you saying it doesn’t make it true.  Sullivan has a lot in common with many libertarian-leaning Republicans who want less government in all areas of our lives.  Just because Sullivan supports gay marriage and has mixed feelings about abortion doesn’t make him the Catholic version of Barney Frank.

    Posted by Recess Supervisor on June 03, 2009 at 0005 hrs




27. Sullivan completely lost me with his conspiracy theory obsession with Sarah Palin’s youngest son - you know, the “did she REALLY give birth to him” crap.

    lost more than a bit of credibility with the tin-foil hat.

    Posted by (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on June 03, 2009 at 0612 hrs